Waterdragon Tsuba- information please

[roger dundas]

Looking forward to any and all comments re this tsuba.

To me the carving, casting and attachment of the figure is excellent but the overall effewct is somewhat spoiled by the ugly hitsu ana excavations- does this matter ?

74 x 71 x 4 cm ( after all these years I still find metrics a bit confusing after being raised on feet and inches )

[Ken-Hawaii]

Probably should post this under Tosogu, Roger. Mods?

[DirkO]

Looks like dragon was added later as an exercise on this tsuba. Space/composition wise it doesn't fit all that nice. Probably seppa area isn't useable due to inlay being a bit higher. Nice dragon though.

[FlorianB]

Concerning the hitsu-ana they’re just in the traditional shape so I don’t see the point.

If You’re bothered by the holes find someone who can plug them (although they’ll never vanish completely).

At least the artist considered both the kogai-hitsu-ana and the inome by placing the dragon.

Florian

[ROKUJURO]

Roger,

the metric system is something that has to be learned like left/right hand driving, and when you have grown up differently, it may really seem complicated. In all her loooooong life, my mother never learned that the 'old' German pound was omitted and replaced by kilogram.  

"74 x 71 x 4 cm ( after all these years I still find metrics a bit confusing after being raised on feet and inches )"

Your TSUBA probably measures 74 x 71 x 4 mm.

[Michael 101]

Hi Roger, 

 

when you say ugly hitsu ana excavations- did you actually mean the marks around the nakago ana ? 
 

if so then I dont think these spoil this tsuba - its just a sign that the tsuba has been adjusted and mounted to a sword and not spent its life sitting in a box - so in many ways adds to the history of the tsuba. 
 

this style of inlay was very popular in the 19th century and look to be the same age as the tsuba - although it would be hard to be certain if it were original or added slightly later, although my money would be on the former.

 

 Kindest regards 

Michael 

[vajo]

Wow i think later added but very very nice and enjoyable. The dragon plays with the old design of the tsuba. Well done to purchase this tsuba.

[Ford Hallam]

The Gold seal reads, Tou. This is the Kao of Tsuchiya Yasuchika I, one of the thrtee Nara San-saku. As a matter of interest I have a tanto tsuba with a very similar rain dragon and Tou seal.

 

Whether it's a genuine Yasuchika, yours or mine, is a matter of speculation.

[Brian]

Very nicely and uniquely done dragon, agree or not Ford?
I like it a lot. Don't see many dragon depicted from above like this. I would be proud if this was mine, congrats Roger.

[JohnTo]

Hi Roger,

I'm a bit concerned about the number of toes that your dragon has.  All Japanese dragons that I have seen (just a few dozen) and according to internet sources, should only have three toes.  Chinese dragons have four toes, except if made for the emperor, in which case they have five (I gather it was a serious affront to inadvertently put five toes on a non-imperial dragon).  So maybe it begs the question as to whether this tsuba was later embelished by a Chinese artisan.

 

Regards, John  

[Ford Hallam]

Hey Brian, yes, it us a nicely done dragon. I've seen a few done in this style that look as though they were all done by the same hand.

[TETSUGENDO]

Hi Roger,

I'm a bit concerned about the number of toes that your dragon has.  All Japanese dragons that I have seen (just a few dozen) and according to internet sources, should only have three toes.  Chinese dragons have four toes, except if made for the emperor, in which case they have five (I gather it was a serious affront to inadvertently put five toes on a non-imperial dragon).  So maybe it begs the question as to whether this tsuba was later embelished by a Chinese artisan.

 

Regards, John  

Hi John,

 

Dragons depicted in Japanese art are not limited to three toes, they can exhibit all the digits represented in Chinese and South East Asian Art as well........it's a common misconception.

 

Cheers,

    -S- 

[b.hennick]

I must admit that I share that misconception.

[Stephen]

And how do we differentiate between male and female dragons?

[TETSUGENDO]

Take you Dragon to a Veterinarian who specializes in mythological creatures.  

 

Cheers,

     -S- 

[roger dundas]

I would like to thank you all for your considerations and replies- some information at last.

Thanks again,

Roger

[TETSUGENDO]

Glad we could offer you some useful info.    Welcome to NMB we can always use more Aussie members.

 

     Cheers 

         -S- 

[Stephen]

Japanese dragons are similar to the Chinese in that they are most often depicted as a massive serpent-like creature with no wings. The best way to distinguish between the two is to look at their toes as the Chinese have five, whereas Japanese dragons have three toes.Nov 12, 2018

As far as sex its the end of ther tails

[Tanto54]

For whatever it is worth, I agree with Oyabun Stephen (USMC).  Almost all (99%) of Japanese dragons have three toes and Chinese dragons almost always have more than three toes.  And as Stephen mentioned, sometimes the Ken at the end of the dragon's tail indicates its sex (especially where there are two dragons - like menuki - and only one has a Ken tail).

[TETSUGENDO]

Almost all, 99%.....where did these facts come from?    All statements like this do is confuse and support falsehoods.    There are depictions of  Dragons with more than 3 toes in paintings and Buddist/Zen Buddhist temples throughout Japan....far exceeding a mere 1 percent.     All these images were painted in Japan by Japanese Artists, they are therefore Japanese by definition.     I also offer a winged Dragon for good measure, these creatures are also not rare in Japanese Art.     Finally, sexing Dragons is a much more complex subject than tails alone.     To disagree with fact is contrariness, it serves no useful purpose.

 

-S-

 

Kennin-ji Zen BuddistTemple, Kyoto

 

Woodblock print by Kuniyoshi

 

 

[Stephen]

The latter pix is not a dragon per se.

It may take some searching its name does not come to mind.

[TETSUGENDO]

The latter pix is not a dragon per se.

It may take some searching its name does not come to mind.

Definitely a Dragon, just not the sinuous serpentine variety...again, there are all sorts.  .    We could "Ping-Pong" this ad nauseam, but out of mutual respect and friendship let's just end it.     Also, we'll save Brian the aggravation of stepping in.

 

Cheers,

    -S-

[b.hennick]

It is a shiachi - dragon fish. 

[Stephen]

Yep a fish

Brian stepping in???

Nobody is out of order..lets leave mole hills hills. Lol

[TETSUGENDO]

Bruce,

 

Shiachi is a dragon-fish, the Kuniyoshi photo in question in not a dragon-fish.     The dragon-fish has the head of a lion or tiger, I have added a picture of the classic Shiachi roof ornament.

 

-S- 

 

 

[Tanto54]

StevenK, after seeing literally thousands of dragons in all kinds of Japanese art over 45 years, I can assure you that almost all have three toes.  For every one that you can show me with more than three toes, I can show you 99 with three toes (that's how you get to around 99%).  Anyway, it's a very good rule of thumb for people to generally tell Japanese and Chinese dragons apart.  Therefore, you do a disservice to our NBM community when you tell them otherwise. 

 

Also, it's funny the you should use the ceiling dragons at Kennin-ji, the Buddhist Temple in Kyoto as your "proof".  I was there last year and saw that painting.  It's a new modern painting done in the last few years by Koizumi Junsaku-san.  He also did some other temple ceiling dragon paintings with more than three toes, but he is a modern anomaly (and based on the style of his dragons, I believe that he is modeling them on Chinese dragons anyway).

[Stephen]

And the beat goes on... la da dee da dee die.

[TETSUGENDO]

I will continue stating fact, and you three gentlemen are welcome to carry on with your heads planted firmly in the sand.     As you can obviously entertain yourselves I'll leave you to it...carry on.

 

Respectfully,

 

         -S- 

[Stephen]

I resent that Mr K.

Your two pix is not hard fact. Just saying you researched it does not prove it so. We're all entitled to our opinions. All my dragon's (I have a few) have there toes. Ill search more in the morning. Till then ill refrain from telling you to go pound sand.

 

https://classroom.synonym.com/difference-between-Japanese-chinese-dragons-12081559.html

[Stephen]

I propose this be split at where we veered off the OP. Starting with

The difference between Chinese and Japanese dragons. Dragons will always be part of tosogu. They deserve their own thread.