Info sought on a Morimitsu Katana - recent find

[tonyadelaideAU]

Hello to all

 

I'm seeking information on a sword I recently acquired. 

I was able gently remove the handle and  free it and the tsuba etc.. from the blade. I would say this hadn't been done since WWII era or before.

I got the two characters on the tang translated as Morimitsu (imaged attached)

They are the only characters on the tang. 

The sword is a leather covered military scabbard. The leather has a nice patina from age though it is a bit brittle.  

The blade is in pretty good condition and has a irregular wavy hamon. 

I've traded militaria, artefacts and other collectables for 30 years and I believe this may be a blade of some age and a bit better than the average wall hanger. 

Please excuse me if I've spelled anything incorrectly or got the terminology wrong.

Thanks in Advance for any help with further identitfying this.

Tony 

[Bazza]

G'day Tony,

 

As an old Adelaide boy from decades ago welcome to NMB.  Beware, if you do not plan to stay do not read too many posts or you will be inoculated with the Nihonto virus and not bother with militaria, artefacts and other collectables...

 

I started my Nihonto career in Adelaide around 1961 - its getting a bit hazy now...  The way the kanji is written on your sword suggest to me Shinto, but this source suggests 14th century????

https://nihontoclub.com/view/smiths/meisearch?type=All&mei_op=contains&mei=morimitsu

 

A more extensive source suggests to me your sword may be late Muromachi:

 

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=46IYtI0nkiEC&pg=PA386&lpg=PA386&dq=%E5%AE%88%E5%85%89&source=bl&ots=BRIb_4XTPw&sig=ACfU3U1wVNQqla9uC0S-jrFlTpVnX4ACSg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwil38KxqMPlAhWoILcAHdv4CW04ChDoATAAegQICRAB#v=onepage&q=%E5%AE%88%E5%85%89&f=false

 

Here is a copy of the page from Markus Sesko's marvellously useful book:

 

Can you photograph the tang from notches to end without habaki plus a closeup of the edge notch area and the point.

 

Best regards,

BaZZa

aka Barry Thomas.

(been in Melbourne for 55 years)

[tonyadelaideAU]

Hi Bazza

 

Nice warm day here today 

 

I've always liked Japanese swords 

 

Is this what you meant?

 

I've also included an image of the Tsuba and the other bits that come off it. I assume these are WWII issue. 

 

I'll get a photo of the point later 

 

Regards Tony 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Hi Tony, definitely a nice WW2 Type 98 Shin Gunto with old blade and clearly carried during the war. Old swords like this were either donated via sword drive campaigns or specially mounted by the owner. Looks to be a classic Muromachi era sword with that Sori (curvature of the blade).

[tonyadelaideAU]

This is the point.

It has a few marks and dings.

 

Length of blade is 837mm (including tang) or just under 33 inches for our American friends

 

I'm trying to get some provenance on it but a WWII 'souvenir' of an Australian officer for sure. Possibly Manus Island. 

 

Thanks Again for the help

 

Regards Tony  

[Bazza]

G'day Tony,

 

In Post #3 Tony wrote:

> Is this what you meant?

 

Yes...  but without the habaki (the 'collar' butting up against the notches, viz., hamachi and munemachi).  The silver habaki you show in your photo is only 'half' a habaki.  If that is all you got with the sword then half of it is missing.  A two-piece habaki is called a ni-ju habaki.

 

Also, the length of a katana is measured from the back edge notch (munemachi - right at the tang junction), in a straight line to the point, so you might want to revise the measurement you give of ~84cm/33 inches.

 

Regards,

BaZZa.

[tonyadelaideAU]

G'day Tony,

 

In Post #3 Tony wrote:

> Is this what you meant?

 

Yes...  but without the habaki (the 'collar' butting up against the notches, viz., hamachi and munemachi).  The silver habaki you show in your photo is only 'half' a habaki.  If that is all you got with the sword then half of it is missing.  A two-piece habaki is called a ni-ju habaki.

 

Also, the length of a katana is measured from the back edge notch (munemachi - right at the tang junction), in a straight line to the point, so you might want to revise the measurement you give of ~84cm/33 inches.

 

Regards,

BaZZa.

Hi Bazza 

 

Blade is 69cm to the top of the habaki and 67cm below. There is another brass(?) fitting that goes over the one in the images. It was loose.  

I'm not game to take that collar off in the image as it's firmly in place

 

Regards Tony 

[Bazza]

Hi Bazza 

 

Blade is 69cm to the top of the hibaki and 67cm below. There is another brass(?) fitting that goes over the one in the images. It was loose.  

I'm not game to take that collar off in the image as it's firmly in place

 

Regards Tony 

Hello Tony,

 

Can you please show us the brass(?) habaki by itself - side on and tsuba end on - and in place on the sword.  

 

On the stuck silver piece if you slowly pour boiling water from your quick-boil jug over the hard-to-move habaki then grasp it with a cloth around it and "winkle" it, it should come off.  Failing that, still grasping it whack the sword end down on a piece of wood.  Might take a few judicious tries.  Let's know how it goes.  In the vast archives of NMB there is a thread or two on removing stuck habaki.  Most of us have had the problem.

 

Regards,

BaZZa.

[tonyadelaideAU]

Hi Bazza

 

Starting to get dark here so I'll take that collar off tomorrow. The loose one looks more like copper than brass actually. 

 

Here are a couple of it with the sword. Hopefully I'm getting you what you asked for

 

Regards Tony B.

[Rivkin]

Tony, at the first glance with sori shifted towards nakago, with longish kissaki, with relatively somewhat short, wide and beefy nakago (even if its suriage) a guess can be this is something from Onin period or closeby. An erroneous guess by a non-expert.

To pin it down it would be great to have 3 photographs - naked blade with nothing on it, full length. Nakago, with nothing on it (habaki etc.), full length. The most active and visible 10 inches of hamon.

 

Kirill R.

[tonyadelaideAU]

Good Morning from Adelaide

 

Thank you all for your input. 

 

This morning after a strong coffee I've tried the boiling water method to no avail. 

 

I then tried the light tap with a piece of wood. What it's revealed is there is another copper Habaki under the silver one. (image below) This isn't taking into account of the other outer copper one that was loose.

 

Getting this blade naked isn't going to be easy. I'll try the penetrating oil later on. perhaps?

 

A couple more questions: 

If I damage the habaki is this bad? the outer silver is very soft. In my efforts so far I've already put a small wrinkle in it. 

Assuming this blade is of some value should I use penetrating a oil like WD40? Or just keep that stuff well away?

Or should I be seeking professional help?

 

I hope the additional images attached help with ID and thank you in advance 

 

Tony Bond, Adelaide Australia

[PNSSHOGUN]

Tony what you're seeing is really the true habaki with the silver sheet coming away from it. Destroying the habaki wouldn't be great as they cost a few hundred dollars or more to have professionally made.

[tonyadelaideAU]

Tony what you're seeing is really the true habaki with the silver sheet coming away from it. Destroying the habaki wouldn't be great as they cost a few hundred dollars or more to have professionally made.

 

Hi John, 

 

It's seriously stuck.

 

I'm not sure how to proceed. It's like I've opened a can of worms!

 

Regards Tony 

[Rivkin]

Ok, that looks a little bit later, maybe as late as Eisho (1560). 

Just a guess. If habaki is stuck, so be it.

 

Kirill R.

[tonyadelaideAU]

OK in a classic case of persistence beats resistance the habaki is off.  

 

The third try with boiling water did the trick along with some gentle tapping with a wooden block. Thanks Bazza.

 

Images of the naked blade attached.

 

EDIT: The sori as measured from the notch that was under the habaki is 23mm

 

The photo below shows it measured end to end 

 

Thanks again for all the advice and help 

 

Regards Tony Bond 

[SteveM]

Nice shape. Good-looking sword. Don't worry about damaging the habaki; they are considered, for better or worse, items that are normally replaced every now and again. (Obviously I exclude the very specially-made habaki that have intricate carvings or family crests on them). 

 

To me, this looks like a sword that might be worthy of a polish, a replacement habaki, and a new shirasaya. The WW2 fittings are interesting for militaria collectors, but this sword looks to predate WW2 by maybe 500 years, and looks like a true samurai relic. If it were mine, I would consider keeping the WW2 bits separately, and put this sword in a shirasaya - and if the signature is authentic I think I might be foolish enough to even consider getting a proper koshirae made for it. 

[tonyadelaideAU]

Thanks Steve,

 

 

What does one do to getting something like this sword polished? And should I do it? Is it worth getting 'papered'? Or should I pass it on to someone who will do exactly what needs to be done?

As I said in my first post I am a trader and this is in no way in my field of knowledge and doing something like you suggested needs to value add.

Having said that I'm used to doing research on items.

 

Regards Tony Bond

[SteveM]

Next step would be to try to get it in the hands of someone who is knowledgeable about Japanese blades. We have a few Aussies on the board, so maybe someone is close to you, or, maybe you can arrange to meet at a convenient spot. Or, if there are Japanese sword clubs near you, you should be able to bring your sword there to show the group. If I recall there was at least one Japanese-trained polisher living in Oz, so it might also be possible to send the sword to that person for an appraisal. 

 

Beware of amateurs claiming to know how to polish Japanese swords, and self-taught polishers. Nothing ruins a sword like an amateur polish. And amateur polishes have a tendency to be permanently damaging - meaning once the sword has been gound down by an amateur polish, its impossible to bring it back to its beautiful state. The polisher needs to know Japanese steel, the shape the sword should be in, the shape of the tip, the way to handle the hamon, the way to highlight the various activities, etc... And a classically-trained polisher will also know how to handle flaws in the sword, if any. Just making the sword "shiny" is the kiss of death for Japanese swords. 

 

Until you show it to an expert, the best thing you can do is avoid touching the blade, keep it lightly coated in a very lightweight oil, and read more on this site about sword care, etc. Learn what you can about Morimitsu. You've got a massive head start with what Bazza showed you (and he's in Melbourne, so maybe he can take a look or help point in the right direction). There are a few smiths who used the name Morimitsu, so maybe you can try narrowing down the field of candidates. Bazza suggests shinto period (from the 1600s), but the way the sword curves up towards the handle makes it look older to me. And that hamon is fairly distinctive so I feel you should be able to make a good guess at which Morimitsu this points to. 

 

If the name on the sword is genuine, I would look around the internet to see if I could find any other examples of swords from the same smith. But this takes a bit of practice and patience to weed through the false positives and close-but-not-quite-the-same-smith results that inevitably come back. A polish would cost you a couple thousand bucks, and authentication would cost maybe another thousand after shipping and import/export charges. And that comes with its own pitfalls, especially in Australia as it seems the customs agents there can be fairly capricious in deciding what is an antique. Embarking on that path as a trader, well, you will have to make your own mental calculations of cost/benefit and risk/reward. But I'm intrigued by what I see in the shape and hamon, so I would first see if any collectors around you feel its as interesting as I think it is. 

[tonyadelaideAU]

Thank you for your wise words and sharing your knowledge Steve. Same goes for all those who have commented.

 

I'm quite confident the sword hasn't been touched since WWII.

 

I've been looking on this site for the last 24 hours and the wealth of information and the knowledge base here is almost overwhelming.

Time to give it some more thought but probably getting as much information on it and then getting this to a collector who would take it to the next level is a more likely option.  

As I've said I'm used to doing research on items and I am a long term trader in ethnographic material particularly Australian Aboriginal and Pacific items. Plus a fair bit of WWI & WWII militaria. 

So I guess I am trying to say I completely understand how much one needs to go through to become knowledgeable on a 'esoteric' subject. 

 

 

I'm happy to put some more images up if required and would love to hear more from other members here. 

Kind Regards Tony Bond 

[Rivkin]

Sengaku generation Bizen Morimitsu (another option - Kaga Morimitsu, but this one looks a little bit more Bizen to me personally) in polish unless its drop dead gorgeous - maybe 3-5k usd. Basically the price of polish.

If your concern is money, I would sell it as it is. Even investing in brining it to Japan is quite high compared to what you are going to get, but maybe you'll get lucky and it papers to the Oei generation... There are shinsas in the US, but I don't think in AU.

It looks authentic enough, so someone interested in Sengaku swords might buy it.

 

Kirill R.

[SAS]

Nice looking sword, definitely koto, Muromachi or before perhaps, to me....it looks to have seen some use in combat, judging by the damage in the monouchi area. A trained polisher should judge whether it can be repaired without significantly changing the shape.

[tonyadelaideAU]

Thanks SAS appreciate the input 

 

Agree re combat. Most of the Japanese the Australian fought during WWII were in New Guinea and the Indonesian Archipelago and were there from 1942 so quite likely it saw some action then.  

 

Some more images taken outside in bright sunlight showing hamon, signature and both sides of the tang 

 

I've been very gentle handling this sword. (I'd like to think so anyway)

 

Regards Tony Bond 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Combat is perhaps a strong word in terms of use, unfortunately the majority of "combat" with swords was more likely done on prisoners or locals.

[SAS]

I did not presume the mechanism of how, just that the damage to the blade exists. Swords were used in WW2, just as you said John, and in other ways such as leading charges, etc. Opinion only, to me, such significant damage to an old sword that had probably survived for hundreds of years, was most likely on a harder target than an unresisting prisoner.