What's the most you spent on a sword?

[piryohae3]

Curious to see how much people spend on a nihonto. Antique or recently made? Made by someone well-known or not? Shirasaya only or fully mounted? Also I want confirmation that I'm not the only one crazy enough to dump $30k on a superbly handsome sword.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Well, if you can "dump" $30K on a sword, you're in the far-upper echelon of our members. The most I've spent was $12K on a TH-level katana, in both shirasaya & koshirae. You should probably be dealing with Darcy.

[Stephen]

And make sure its worth that!

[Jean]

I did it

[paulb]

James

I am not sure "dumping" $30k is a term I would use when talking about buyng a sword. Also if you have sufficient self confidence to spend such an amount on a blade without being  aware of the market to know whether this is normal or reasonable why do you need to ask the question?

What someone spends on a sword is between them and their conscience (and their partner perhaps  ) It is not generally something that is publicised here or anywhere else.

 

BTW What one is prepared or able to spend on a sword has little or nothing to do with their understanding and appreciation of what they have. Some of the very best scholars have never purchased blades of high monetary value. Equally and more recently we have seen people who know absolutely nothing throw money at blades of no great merit in auctions. 

[Shugyosha]

James,

 

It depends on the value of the sword relative to your income and the need/ desire to remain married. 

 

I honestly don't think I will ever spend that kind of money on a sword unless my numbers come up in the lottery. 

 

That said, I hope you enjoy it and are able to share some pictures so I can indulge my voyeuristic sword fantasies.

[francois2605]

If you look at the "Trade and Sale" section of this forum, you'll see that most swords are under 10K $, maybe 15K at the very top.

 

So just taking into account this fact, I think 30K is way more than what most members are willing / able to pay.

[PNSSHOGUN]

I have thought about whether I would liquidate my entire collection for one sword now and again, 30k would be close.

[BIG]

May be we have to define the swords and markets

 

0 -- 5000 € low end, no papers, bad condition, no polish...

5000 - 15000 € medium, papered, good condition, ( old) polish

15000 - 50000 € good, TH or Juyo papered, flawless very good condition, good polish

50000- 250000 € very good to exellent, Juyo and Tokuju papers, extraordinary textbook condition, exellent polish by high ranking polisher

for the really top end swords there is no presence in the western markets. A Hagenbusch or Piech collection wasn't seen on official western markets, 90 % did go go a calm way back to Japan..

 

Best

[vajo]

0 - 5000 € low end?    wow thats a wide range.

What is low end?

 

I think it depends on the sword, not on the price. To describe a sword on the price is the wrong direction. 

[16k]

Well, low end kind of define my collection!

[Rivkin]

Some of the very best scholars have never purchased blades of high monetary value.

 

The only one I know who fits this is late Gorelik. He suffered from severe poverty, which did impact his writings - often condensed to the point of being stripped from much of the discussion and argument, for the sake of getting the book out in time.

Very unfortunate! Now some of his contributions can be appreciated only by a specialist.

 

Besides him I am perplexed to name anyone. I mean people of solid novel contribution, creating their own school of dating and attribution, changing our knowledge of the field... In the early West that would be Stone and Oakeshott, first is a collector par excellence, second is less wealthy but a notable collector as well. In Japan that would likely be Dr. Honma, and Wakayama, I guess.

One of the obvious issues is that besides LaRocca's work on Tibet and David Nicolle's monographs there is really not much original of comparable scale that would be coming today from professorial-curatorial arms and armor circles.

Markus made a solid contribution through many useful books.

 

Kirill R.

[SAS]

Us bottom feeders need love, too! If I had 30k I would put it into my house, or buy a tractor, or evacuate from Am Sam.....not buy a sword.

[Ray Singer]

Spending $30k on a sword is not 'crazy', but at the same time in my opinion is not an achievement. Something that is perhaps more brag-worthy then having spent the most money on a sword is to have had the found one of the best swords irrespective of price. When I hear that one of our members has had the connoisseurship to identify an unrecognized Chogi, Norishige, Ko-Bizen, Ko-Ichimonji, Awataguchi, etc, that is something I am truly impressed with and that the owner should be proud of.

[Rivkin]

 When I hear that one of our members has had the connoisseurship to identify an unrecognized Chogi, Norishige, Ko-Bizen, Ko-Ichimonji, Awataguchi, etc, that is something I am truly impressed with and that the owner should be proud of.

 

A skill often acquired after seeing at least hundreds and owning dozens of good swords.

 

Kirill R.

[Katsujinken]

Regardless of the budget, quality over quantity is the way to go.

 

Ray is also 100% correct, but there’s also something to be said for collectors who recognize that they lack the time or talent to master kantei but choose to invest in a quality piece out of love and appreciation for the art and a desire to preserve it for future generations.

 

We need both of these theoretical people – the one who sees diamonds in the rough and the collector who protects already identified important work – and more!

[ChrisW]

Heh.. you and me both JP, my entire collection is 'low end' but I cherish them all very much. Nicest I have is an unpapered Sukesada wak.

[Vermithrax16]

I think Raymond and Michael covered this question very well.

 

Best advice/practice is to study and figure out what makes you passionate. For some it's ultra rare early blades with provenance. Others, test cut recording is what moves them. Others, some school or a single maker. What is a sword worth to each of the collectors described? Whatever they can afford to attain it. 

 

In the end, you will have what you laid your money out for, whatever the cost. Are you happy? Are you excited to take them out and clean and oil them? That's what matters.

[Stefan]

May be we have to define the swords and markets

 

0 -- 5000 € low end, no papers, bad condition, no polish...

5000 - 15000 € medium, papered, good condition, ( old) polish

15000 - 50000 € good, TH or Juyo papered, flawless very good condition, good polish

50000- 250000 € very good to exellent, Juyo and Tokuju papers, extraordinary textbook condition, exellent polish by high ranking polisher

for the really top end swords there is no presence in the western markets. A Hagenbusch or Piech collection wasn't seen on official western markets, 90 % did go go a calm way back to Japan..

 

Best

 

Just a few Moments ago I saw a Naoe-Shizu Ko-Katana witrh Koshirae, Blade TH . Price ? 5000 $. Severral days ago a Satsuma Shinto Katana with  Koshirae for 6000, also TH The normal Price for Wakizashi with T.H. 4000-5500 etc. Tanto even less.

Nobody will  pay  your  prices at the moment  Peter. The  Prices are in the cellar,  buisness is down. God time for buying, hard times for sellers.

[paulb]

The price of a a sword is determined by the sword itself not the papers. I have seen TH Yamato Shizu blades for $6K and $25k both were good value for what they were. I have seen the same for Naoe-Shizu, Rai and Bizen works.

Using the paper as a price guide is fraught with potenital dangers. Increasingly the market seems to be using them as a short cut to detemining quality and price (This is particularly true of some auction houses).

Ultimately the buyer needs to decide for themselves whether the sword is worth the asking price and whether owning it would give them greater pleasure than having the money in their bank account.

[Stefan]

I am sorry, but  I am smiling. In  my beginnings I ve  been taught "Do not  buy signatures, do not  buy  papers, jugde the sword itself"

Well now, I am  sitting here  at my writing desk and i see that we will  go back to the beginnings.

Last time  we reached this point in the eighties, after  all the fuss about  the  Yakuza papers.

I am  pretty sure in the  not  to far  future, the  paper game will start again.

So  dear friends, one more round and cheerio to the believe in authoritarians  

[paulb]

Hi Stefan

To be clear I am not saying papers are  unreliable or inaccurrate. Certianly there will always be questions, but considering the large numbers of swords going through the process that isn't surprising. The problem is that the market is increasingly using the papers for something they were never intended to do, i.e. establish market value. I don't believe that is how the process was intended to work.

The paper establishes:

• if signed is the blade an authentic work by the named smith. If unsigned attribute to period, school and if possible smith.
• Is it worthy of preservation i.e. is it in good condition and of a quality you would expect from the smith/school
• Moving to higher level papers relates to the quality and rarity of the piece.

At the moment there almost appears to be an attempt to create a matrix of Hozon papered blade = $X, TH =X+1 etc. It just cant work that way.

I have seen Juyo papered blades attributed to lesser schools sell for under $20k Hozon papered blades attributed to Ko-Bizen or Awataguchi sell for 3 or 4 time this figure.

The price depends on the quality of the sword, who made it, condition and rarity. The paper is a very useful addition to validate these factors.

The governing factor is do you like it? are you prepared to pay the asking price?

[Gakusee]

Paul has made numerous valid and compelling arguments, which I am not going to reiterate, but shall add my own thinking:

 

- the question is very personal and somewhat inappropriate. Why is the original poster trying to legitimise and justify his own expenditure via the prism and interpretation of fellow members?

 

- very few would admit their economic worth, spending power and and intrinsically linked, disposable income and therefore prices they have paid for swords

 

- the board has members with a very large spending power and top swords but they are not vocal. Why should the be? The board is about education, preservation, social banter but we do not go and rub in other people’s faces what we have or how much we have spent

 

- Paul mentioned scholars who have studied but not necessarily bought expensive swords. Some names I could add are people like Basil Robinson, our former ToKen chairman Victor Harris (both in the UK) and of course - Tanobe sensei. By most standards, the couple of swords Tanobe sensei has are modest but he has advanced our knowledge and thinking immensely in the last three decades.

 

- the conversation is not about papers; let us not veer into that

 

Having launched the above invective, let me answer the question originally posited. I know many collectors who have spent that amount and more. In fact, quite a few dealers are top collectors with amazing and very expensive items. But even beyond that, there are many non-Japanese people who can and acquire such swords. But of course the price paid needs to be proportional to the value, rarity, quality etc.

[vajo]

I think a pricerange is helpfull when you decide to buy a sword. But it is never a fixed price for a decission. In the end the own taste will say i buy it or not. 

A polished and papered Akihisa for 2000 Dollar would be crying cheap and i would buy it immediatley even i don't need it at all. Actually the price is around 4500 and 5000 Dollar. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

I think you would get a more productive and informative response from members with a topic such as: "What is the least you paid for a good sword".

[16k]

However, I don’t see the shame of admitting what we’ve spent. Yes, a lot of people here have a lot of spending power, good for them! I’m not jealous! I wish I were rich but I’m not. That’s the way life is. We’re not equal and, in a way, I’m glad we’re not!

 

So to reply to the OP question, I have one sword for which I spent $7000.

 

The rest of them is below (sometimes well below!) $4000.

 

The cheapest I bought was $400.

 

There we go. In a way, that’s the beauty of that collection. I’ll never have a treasure sword, I can’t afford it and even if I did, I’d feel wrong buying a sword that could get me a car or feed my family. However, there are swords around for almost every kind of wealth. And without people getting low end swords, whatever that is, they would eventually disappear, so no shame at all in only being able to get low end swords!

[Stephen]

personally its none of your beeswax 

 

better question would be whats the most you'd spend. 

 

Mr Big has me limited to 5K  

[Death-Ace]

I know the question, but am going a little further in detail.

 

I've had 17 blades in the 15 years I have collected. Most were not in polish, but I got most well below 1000 (a few 500 or below) that just needed a slight "treatment" of uchiko (way back when), isopropyl alcohol, and oil to see the activities of a hamon and jihada.

 

I have spent 2000 on two blades separately, one was in polish, an o-suriage Kanbun era blade in Type 98 mounts. Had a lovely suguha/gunome mix with nezumi ashi evenly spaced out. The other four I had mostly gotten for around 900, a Kashu Nagatsugu in T98, a Yamato Senjuin in laquered shirasaya, a "kamikaze" Kaiken (400 in 2005), and a Boy's Day blade with lovely masame and a lovely midare with choji, emulating a tachi.

 

My favorite two were the Boy's Day, with nice tosugu, and the Yamato. Both had a few fukure, but as old as they were, I accepted. The quality is amazing!

 

The only blade I have at the moment is a Ko-Uda wakizashi, out of polish with utilitarian koshiare modified for WWII. It does have some repaired ware in the bohi, but in the proper light, and oiled, I can see the old hadori polish as well as all the activites within the hamon and the hada. I spent 260, plus a trade of a few old WWII US militaria I had gotten free from being saved from trash. I am keeping that one, as the rest I have sold for issues (personal) and to pay bills. Most of my collection came from auctions or militaria shows.

 

You're not crazy, in my eyes, for wanting to spend 30k on a sword if yoh have the money. But also ensure thats what you want. A reason that a lot of nihonto, even on dealer's sites, are going cheaper than usual or having price reductions is because of the economy, and depending on the time of year. There have been a few Juyo going less than 20k. But it depends on the school, fittings can help, and the smith (if attributed). I do believe Uda and Ko-Uda are underpriced, as much as can be for some in the Kamakura period. But it's all personal and what's marketable. I wouldn't buy a Juyo unless I won the lottery, but I feel like for that price, I could buy a sword from each major sword school for 6000 each, papered and polished and have quite a bit to study. And for a fraction that, have quite a few books!

 

Koto and gendaito are my focal points, loving the reasoning behind them for combat, but I would love a ko-Bizen, or a Ko-Hoki, as Darcy had for sale a while back. If I could spend 30k, that blade would have been the one I wanted. If not that, a Norishige if the sky's the limit. I would love to have a Ko-Hoki, a Go Yoshihiro, a Norishige, and each attributable Ko-Uda and Uda smith. I love the former two for their beauty, and the latter for their durability and beauty, even if quality began to degrade during the late Nanbokucho/Muromachi era.

 

Again, its what you want to collect! If I had to have one sword for 30k, and wanted it to be an investment, a papered Juyo or TH of a particular school is what I would get. But for pleasure, you know my choice.

[Bruce Pennington]

The most I've spent is $2,400 (twice). One for a copper-handled Type 95 and another for a Kaigunto with a koto blade and rayskin saya. But I've got a pretty small hobby fund.

[Tom Darling]

Hi James,

 

Please tell us the superb sword you purchased?  I would assume with papers! Peace.

 

 

Tom D.