Real or elaborate fake?

[SajoSeif]

Sold as a genuine nihonto, without papers. What do you guys think? Real? Or gimei?

[SajoSeif]

[SajoSeif]

[PNSSHOGUN]

Komonjo blade, hard to tell on this one.

[vajo]

Komonjo blade. 

It seems this will get a new brand.

[SajoSeif]

right??? These blades are actually getting better and better...

[16k]

I personally stand by my opinion from the other thread. Real Gendaito, fake signature.

[vajo]

JP i have the same feeling but why he is destroying a sword if it is a true gendaito? A mumei hontanren-to is much more worth than it is faked to gimei. Make no sense for me.

 

And next question where all these "gendaito" come from? Did they find a treasure hole with a lot of wartime swords?  And another thing is these Komonjo blades are mostly over 70 cm long. Typical for fake swords.

[vajo]

SajoSeif could you sign with your realname please. And could you tell us where you have bought the sword? 

 

That tanto is the same style..

https://www.ebay.com/itm/T816-Japanese-Samurai-Sword-Harumitsu-Gendaito-Osoraku-Tanto-Blade/143378627405?hash=item2162083b4d:g:fzIAAOSwhSNddsm4

[SajoSeif]

It is a komojo blade that I simply bought as I needed sth for my iai practice. Concerning the "why ruin a gendaito with gimei" The same thing I have asked myself. But I can tell you guys where they come from or at least what I have been TOLD. These swords are genuine nihonto from Japan forged by apprentices and "not so well off" smiths trying to make a buck. The regulations concerning nihonto seem to be bearing down hard on them. So they basically make a genuine blade usually typical length for westerners as they try their best to actually export them and sell them under the table.

(although a lot of koryu practitioners I know in Japan also use gimei swords for tameshigiri etc.)

Why the signature? Easy... selling point. Not everyone is an expert in judging legitimacy of a mei.

[SajoSeif]

Conerning signing in with my name. I'm sorry I missed that! I'm on my mobile phone at the moment and actually have to admit I have no idea how all the settings here work... I'll try to change that haha

[Hoshi]

The most obvious explanation is that these are made in china, and the production methods are simply getting better. We're witnessing Komonjo blades Gen 5. The first one were terrible chinese fakes, and slowly he's upping his game as he can re-invest the proceeds of his scams. 

 

The Nakago remains plain wrong in shape and finish and the proportions on the Kissaki are off. Give it five years and we won't be able to tell anymore.

 

"Apprentice blades sold under the table" is just a way to romanticize his merch. And it contains its own sort of twisted irony: he's actively contributing to putting traditionally-apprenticed Japanese swordsmiths out of business. 

[SajoSeif]

The most obvious explanation is that these are made in china, and the production methods are simply getting better. We're witnessing Komonjo blades Gen 5. The first one were terrible chinese fakes, and slowly he's upping his game as he can re-invest the proceeds of his scams. 

 

"Apprentice blades sold under the table" is just a way to romanticize his merch.

 

 

Could definately be! I must honestly say though, that if these are chinese blades then this is the best

chinese blade I ever had in my hand. Balance, the koshirae, the whole construction just doesn't

seem chinese.... like... at all. Especially if you consider that ALL the other big chinese companies

are missing out on some damn good smiths if they are still selling their rather badly balanced knock offs for the same price.

But in the end you never know.

[vajo]

Stefan you got a good sword for a low price for your iai practice. But it is not a nihonto. And yes, it is nicley made. But the intend of making these swords is not make iai blades. It is made for blaming collectors and making money with it. 

[SajoSeif]

That is the thing I have an issue with. I mean, I only tried to find a cheap blade for iai. But for someone who is seriously collecting swords, the whole development on the market is kind of scary. We have truly entered the realm of next generation forgery.

[16k]

It is a komojo blade that I simply bought as I needed sth for my iai practice. Concerning the "why ruin a gendaito with gimei" The same thing I have asked myself. But I can tell you guys where they come from or at least what I have been TOLD. These swords are genuine nihonto from Japan forged by apprentices and "not so well off" smiths trying to make a buck. The regulations concerning nihonto seem to be bearing down hard on them. So they basically make a genuine blade usually typical length for westerners as they try their best to actually export them and sell them under the table.

(although a lot of koryu practitioners I know in Japan also use gimei swords for tameshigiri etc.)

Why the signature? Easy... selling point. Not everyone is an expert in judging legitimacy of a mei.

This is exactly what I believe they are. Chinese blades they are not, at least, not like any I’ve seen, and I’ve seen and own many. And I also believe you’re right about the mei. If they are made for a western audience, having a prestigious mei will be an important selling point.

 

And as I said elsewhere, why should we care if they’re real or fake. They are cheap, so not a great loss of money anyway. And shouldn’t we judge a blade for what it is and not what it’s trying to pass for?

 

Whatever the origin, these are good blades.

[vajo]

The problem is JP that market is floded with that fake ones. There will be no understanding of real antique swords. Its like fast food. 

[16k]

True, but I think the only (huge admittedly) problem is that they’re marketed as genuine. If you buy them for what you truly know they are, I don’t think you’re making such a bad deal. Of course, if you think you’re buying a Gendaito by a National Treasure, then you’re getting screwed. That’s why when you’re surrounded by dishonest sellers, the only saving grace is study until you know enough to see through the shady and unscrupulous traps this hobby is loaded with.

 

... and for this, this site is invaluable!

[vajo]

I'm with you. If you speak further i go and buy one. ????

[Dave R]

 One of the stories I was told about these, is that they were made as "cutters" for martial artists in Japan. When they get a bend or a chip, they go to Komon jo. I have no idea if this is true, but the source for this was someone who went to Japan on a regular basis, and was involved in sourcing and buying Japanese antiques.

 

 I have no theories or stories about the Mei.

[SAS]

Someone richer than i am should buy one of these, cut it up, and have it spectrographed to check on its construction and steel origins.

[Brian]

There was also talk of a Thai connection.
Whatever the answer, there is no doubt the origin is dubious and likely underhanded. I'm in the camp that says give them a brand name and sell them on their own methods. But of course if the export/production is illegal then that isn't an option.

[Austus]

Excuse me, but what is that gold color on the tang??   Is it plating?  Has anyone ever seen another tang like this?  I have been looking for the answer to that question for 2 years.

 

Thanks, I think.

Austus

[Ray Singer]

I think that orange cast is simply the overhead lighting that Mike Yamaguchi uses, which is picked up more easily by the yasurimei.