Is this a Masamune tanto?

[jblev2]

It belonged to the Tokugawa family and was owned by Yuki Hideyasu. 

[ROKUJURO]

jblev2,

I don't think so.

Please sign all posts at least with your first name plus an initial as is requested here.

[hxv]

“Is it a Masamune tanto,” as in the Masamune? No, no, and no.

 

“It belonged to the Tokugawa family and was owned by Yuki Hideyasu.” Based on what provenance?

 

Hoanh

[Ray Singer]

To be blunt, no. It's not even koto. Centuries off the mark, and worlds away in terms of quality.

[jblev2]

I have provenance from a Kyodai Originals in the Netherlands.  Do you all have any professional opinions on the tanto?  Thanks!

 

Jon B

[Frank B]

Apart from the nbthk which is the "professional opinion", Ray's opinion is very well regarded and I agree with him here that's its not close.

[jblev2]

Any opinions on what it is and value?  Thanks.

 

Jon B.

[Ray Singer]

The piece appears to be no earlier shinshinto (late Edo). While it has an aoi-mon carved into the nakago, obviously meant to align with Tokugawa ownership, it is not very skillfully carved. What is the documentation you have which establishes its provenance?

[Ray Singer]

Was this tanto purchased at auction online from a Japanese dealer?

[jblev2]

Yes Kyodai Originals in the Netherlands.  Thanks for all your information!

 

Jon B.

[PNSSHOGUN]

A nice Shin Shinto tanto, however it is no Masamune. Have a close look at this picture and see what similarities you can link between your dagger and an original Masamune? One of the first things you will learn about Japanese swords is trusted dealers are few and far between, and most of the good ones post on this board. Beyond those good sellers I would want to be very careful and hope to know more than enough to be dangerous because there are lots of "Masamune swords owned by the Tokugawa" out there from seemingly reputable dealers. Applying Occams Razor to any sword you are looking to purchase is a good start and will hopefully prevent any purchases you may come to regret in the future.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Brian]

Not even close.
Agree, appears to be a Shinshinto piece. Mon looks Dremelled, not carved. But either way, not a terrible piece but not a masterpiece. It would need a shinsa to say who made it.

[Rivkin]

The object in question sort of wants to pass as Yasutsugu... I doubt the intent of engraving the mon was even to show it belonged to Tokugawa. I might be wrong and hope to be corrected in this case, but I did not see (apart obviously from very many Yasutsugu) swords in Tokugawa (either Mito or Owari) collections with mon engraved on nakago to demonstrate ownership. Its not really Japanese tradition to do so.

Papers, signatures on hako are places where the ownership is often stated, sometimes one gets to see signatures chiseled on nakago saying this is owned by such and such, but engraving mon is just not the thing. Habaki can have mon. Hako can have mons.

 

Mon on nakago typically means a shinto smith who was given the right to engrave such mon.

 

Kirill R.

[Ray Singer]

In the real world I generally agree with you Kirill. It seems that this tanto may have some sort of fabricated provenance though. I would like to know a bit more about what that provenance is (verbal, origami, etc). I do not see it outside the realm of possibility that an aoi-mon was added to support a claim of Tokugawa denrai, but the details around this sword are unclear. We do see that aoi-mon appear as a sort of 'marketing gimmick' on the koshirae of many low-quality, late export pieces.

 

Photo of the Kokuho Kikkou Sadamune attached (亀甲貞宗). Once a possession of the Owari Tokugawa, the mon on the nakago is believed to be associated with ownership of the sword.

 

[Stefan]

Shinshinto, not  good  quality. Yasutsugu, no. Masamune, never ever. Deki does not match.

I do hope  it was not  to expensive.

Stefan

[jblev2]

Actually the seller claimed Echizen Yasutsugu to be the maker for Yuki Hideyasu of Tokugawa, I questioned if it was Masamune since the Tokugawa owned his blades, from my reading.  So maybe you are all onto something?

 

Jon B.

[jblev2]

Here is another pic, what does this say?

 

Jon B

[hxv]

This is a torokusho to which Ray referred in your other thread. Just legal sword registration papers and does not attest to the authenticity of the mei and is not provenance.

 

Hoanh

 

 

Ray said:

 

"A number of Kyodai Original's swords are shown with small pieces of paper called torokusho. I want to point out that these are not authentication papers, they do not provide verification of the signature, confirm provenance, indicate quality, etc. They are only licenses for the swords to reside legally in Japan."

[Ray Singer]

The torokusho states that the sword is a tanto of 29.2cm in length and 0.3cm sori with an aoi-mon (葵紋). Torokusho is dated March 7, Heisei 31.

[jblev2]

So any chance it is a Echizen Yasutsugu tanto? 

 

Jon B

[Vermithrax16]

No. 

 

I would suggest as you are in LA to get in touch with Mike Yamasaki. He can help you out.

[Tom Darling]

Not Hardly!    Peace.

 

 

Tom D.

[Hoshi]

I don't even know what this poor Shinshinto blade was trying to fake. 

 

Return it to the seller. 

[Jean]

I don’t like this kind of sugata, but the hada is not bad neither the hamon. What is important is that you were not lead to pay a price based upon forged infos.

 

No Tokugawa would have accepted such a blade.

[Stephen]

The toro says the makers name but i cant make it out.

[Ray Singer]

Stephen, please see above. The torokusho references the aoi-mon.

[Stephen]

thanks Ray i missed that

[Rivkin]

Thanks! I had very vague recollection concerning mons being engraved, but sort of dismissed it... Went through some books and indeed saw a number of higher end blades signed by mon - in all cases the signature was so worn out it probably dates to Momoyama or such. Long old tachi blades.

 

Kirill R.

[jblev2]

The auction company is still claiming these are both 100% authentic and requiring appraisal.  Anyone here qualified and interested?

[hxv]

Jon,

 

Just so you are not wasting your cycles with the auction company, ask them:

 

1. What would they accept as legitimate appraisals? NBTHK papers?

2. What is their appraisal in claiming authenticity of their swords?

 

NBTHK appraisals are expensive and time-consuming. Until you get clear answers from them, it’s not clear how to proceed.

 

Hoanh