Umetada influence?

[Surfson]

This was in a recent auction and I would like to tap the wisdom of you tosogu experts.  Any and all comments appreciated.  I do have a few questions.  Based on the quality of the work on the soft metal part, do you think it may be san mai construction?   I can't tell from the hammer punches around the nakago ana whether it is solid or plates.  Also, I have been able to translate some of the hakogaki, but can't tell who did the hakogaki.   Do any of you recognize the appraiser's signature and stamp?  Cheers, Bob

 

[Surfson]

I'm also curious about the soft metal.  Akagane (suaka), yamagane, karakane or another - what do people think it is?  

[rkg]

Hi,

 

First off, Isn't that a Torigoye Hakogaki?  He used a goofy round seal like that when he did shinsa outside of the Japan....

 

I have a piece that has similar etching, material and maybe age (except mine has a brass rather than iron mimi):

 

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=2046831825372155&id=266005023454853&__tn__=-R

 

I think the material is some flavor of copper.

 

I still don't know who made it/probably never will.  Here's a piece with similar material/etching that I'm pretty sure would be binned as Higo Nishigaki (I've seen pieces that are basically identical that have been papered to them):

 

https://www.facebook.com/pg/Kod%C3%B4gu-no-Sekai-%E5%B0%8F%E9%81%93%E5%85%B7%E3%81%AE%E4%B8%96%E7%95%8C-266005023454853/photos/?tab=album&album_id=2049463868442284

 

On the other hand, I don't think the Higo guys had the monopoly on this etching technique - here's a piece that's similar to the prior one but arguably older - Haynes thought it is  early umetada rather than Higo:

 

https://www.facebook.com/pg/Kod%C3%B4gu-no-Sekai-%E5%B0%8F%E9%81%93%E5%85%B7%E3%81%AE%E4%B8%96%E7%95%8C-266005023454853/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1264256200296392

 

Our pal Bruce posits that there was probably a group that specialized in etching like this in various materials who did a lot of "in the style of" work so their pieces are mis-attributed to various other groups (if I recall correctly he even has records of a few signed ones), but that theory is outside of the normal framework, so...

 

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)

[Ford Hallam]

Undoubtably copper, pretty pure at that too. 

 

Technique and aesthetic feel strongly suggest Higo to me.

[Surfson]

Thanks Richard and Ford, much appreciated.  

 

Richard, do you mind if I post photos of the ones you posted links of?   Links have a tendency to disappear over time, but Brian keeps us archived very well.  

 

So do you both think that it is etched rather than either stamped or carved?   Cheers, Bob

[Ganko]

Nice tsubas. I have a tanto in a koshirae that I've had for many years which has similar workmanship. It is all ensuite with a kamon on each piece. It contains an Enju Kunihiro. I have always felt that it was early to mid Edo, but have never found other examples to compare it with. It is definitely etched rather than carved. The masking medium appears to have been urushi as there are traces of it in the back of the fuchi.

Any thoughts on it would be appreciated.

[Stephen]

Bobby wher did that end ? I was watching but knew it would go beyond my means.

[Surfson]

I think it was about 120,000JPY Stephen.  Whenever I see copper, I think of you!  

[Surfson]

Tom, that one does have a similar (maybe etched?) look. 

[Surfson]

So I am trying, with Setsuko's big help, to translate the hakogaki and this is the best we could do.   I am also including a photo of a Torigoye hakogaki that has the same seal as this one.  Moriyama San translated that one for the original poster (see the link below).

Any help I can get with the translation would be appreciated.   I will also post in the translation section.  The one for this tsuba doesn't seem to be signed by Torigoye or have his kao, but as you can see, we are having a hard time reading it, so maybe we have overlooked it.  

Cheers, Bob

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/1991-kamakura-bori-hakogaki/

 

 

[Surfson]

Moriyama's translation of the other one:

 

[Ford Hallam]

A similar tsuba which Rich Turner suggests is Shoami.

 

https://richardturner.wordpress.com/2013/06/13/shoami-unryu-tsuba-%e6%ad%a3%e9%98%bf%e5%bc%a5%e9%9b%b2%e9%be%8d%e5%9b%b3%e9%90%94/

 

The Kamakura attribution seems very curious.   These are etched whereas Kamakura bori are carved.

[Surfson]

That is a similar tsuba Ford, and I assume that the attribution was NBTHK.  A nice writeup there too - yakite kusarashi is a good learning.  Have you ever practiced that art?  

[Ford Hallam]

Well the usual Japanese word for acid etching is 食刻, shokkoku. I'm mistrustful of many of the fancy terms that are bandied about in tosogu circles, especially if it originates in Torigoe's writings. There are lots of such terms that in fact often betray a lack of understanding of basic metalwork processes and are more likely the fanciful, or poetic, imaginings of armchair experts. I'm not convinced that yakite (to burn or bake etc.) has anything to do with the actions of acids so yakite kasarashi strikes me as a misnomer. 

 

And yes, etching is a decorative technique, a pretty simple one actually,  that I've used on occasion. 

 

 

I don't think the attribution was by the NBTHK, Rich was usually quite fastidious to note such things in his articles. I assume therefore this is his own assessment.

[Pete Klein]

Ford - that is quite pleasant!

[SteveM]

If this follows Torigoye's form, I would say the second part of line 4 is

 

径貮寸八分二厘

Kei: 2-sun, 8-bun, 2-rin

 

I thought the description might reference the geometric pattern in the background. (something like 鱗模様入 (uroko moyō hairu). The only problem is that this pattern isn't "uroko" pattern. More like diamond (菱) pattern, but the kanji on the sayagaki doesn't say 菱. 

[Surfson]

That is nice Ford, it is reminiscent of Kanshiro to my untrained eye!  

 

Thanks Steve.  Moriyama San concluded that Torigoye did sign it using his proper name (there is another thread in the translation section).   Can you find anything attributing it to a school or a maker?  Cheers, Bob

[SteveM]

No, school and maker (and the theme description!) elude me. 

I think line #3 might be 両家, but this makes as much, or as little sense as 両字. 

 

The kanji (or proto-kanji) on the tsuba itself are also doing my head in. 

I thought they might be a depiction of oracle bone script (甲骨文) and that Torigoye might have mentioned this or something like it in his description, but I'm just getting deeper in the weeds. 

[Surfson]

Haha, thanks for trying Steve, and I owe you an Advil (and a beer!).  I assumed that the bottom part of line 2 contains the key information based on other hakogaki of his that I have seen images of.  Cheers, Bob

[SteveM]

I was thinking that part of line 2 is still describing the physical properties - carrying on from 丸形 above, and maybe the first letter is 僅 (wazuka), but...as I say I am deep in the weeds. 

[Surfson]

I wonder whether he was getting on in years at this point, as his writing appears to be more loose than things he wrote in showa 30 or so.  

[yogoro]

This hakogaki comes from a different tsuba than that offered as Umetada. Hakogaki is very interesting, it comes from the last years of Torigoye's life (1977). Hakogaki describes the shinchu Tachi Kanagu-Shi Tsuba.
While abroad, Torigoye used the red round seal of the bird (TORI).
His mark contains Roman numerals.
The Roman number of MDCCCXCIII is 1893 - the year of birth of K. Torigoye, he lived in the years 1893–1978.
The last part is "Torigoye Saro Shirusu" (thank you M.Sesko), date Showa 52 (1977) .
Torigoye used the name Saro in the 60s, in the 70s he used the name Taizan(對山 and  対山)
There is also no characteristic Kao sign defining the era.

[Ford Hallam]

If memory serves the characters, oracle or bone script, are possibly references to the sacred mountains of China.

[Surfson]

Mikolaj, are you saying that it doesn't belong with the tsuba that it was sold with?   The ad for the tsuba never represented it as an Umetada piece - just influenced by the school.  

[Vermithrax16]

Robert S, what did you find pleasing or attractive about this piece?

[Surfson]

Hi Jeremiah.  I love the bimetal approach, the carving/imprinting design and theme, the color and expect that it will feel impressive in the hand at135g.  To me, it was also very unusual and off the beaten path compared to so many of the pieces that I run across.  I don't see tsuba like this at shows in the US.  Finally, I have a book by Robert Burawoy that I like a lot, and it reminded me of the tsuba on the cover (trivial reason, but honest...).  Here is a link showing the cover.   Cheers, Bob

 

https://www.amazon.com/Picture-Book-Old-Tsuba/dp/B002PUN2GW

 

On another topic, I am hoping that Mikolaj responds to my question about his statement that the box and tsuba don't belong together, as I am unconvinced at this point.  We have collectively not been able to find any attribution of the tsuba to a maker or even school in the hakogaki.  What we have found suggests that it has an iron rim and a brass body and the dimensions are correct.  

[Vermithrax16]

Thanks for the response Robert, I like to find out what motivates a chase and you stated it well.

[Surfson]

Here is a better picture of the Burawoy book.   I highly recommend it if you can find a copy.  Cheers, Bob

 

[TETSUGENDO]

  On 9/3/2019 at 1:33 AM, Surfson said:

Hi Jeremiah. I love the bimetal approach, the carving/imprinting design and theme, the color and expect that it will feel impressive in the hand at135g. To me, it was also very unusual and off the beaten path compared to so many of the pieces that I run across. I don't see tsuba like this at shows in the US. Finally, I have a book by Robert Burawoy that I like a lot, and it reminded me of the tsuba on the cover (trivial reason, but honest...). Here is a link showing the cover. Cheers, Bob

 

https://www.amazon.com/Picture-Book-Old-Tsuba/dp/B002PUN2GW

 

On another topic, I am hoping that Mikolaj responds to my question about his statement that the box and tsuba don't belong together, as I am unconvinced at this point. We have collectively not been able to find any attribution of the tsuba to a maker or even school in the hakogaki. What we have found suggests that it has an iron rim and a brass body and the dimensions are correct.

 

Robert, if the hakogaki states the plate of the tsuba is made of brass, doesn't it seem probable that it belongs to another tsuba?

 

-S-

[Surfson]

Hi Steven.  No, if our translation is correct, it states that it is made of shinchu, and shinchu is 85% copper.