Help Identity Our Mon.

[CarsonSharps]

Has anyone ever seen this one before?

 

Thanks!

 

Carson

 

[SteveM]

Looks like a "Genji Letter" crest. 

You can read about them towards the bottom of the following wikipedia page under the heading "Monkō". A pretty rare family crest, I think. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kōdō

 

https://kyotokimono.tumblr.com/post/158624802189/genji-ko

 

[CarsonSharps]

Most appreciated Steve!  Ill check the links!

[SteveM]

I'm starting to think this may be a different kind of mon. It doesn't quite match up with any of the Genji Letters, but in a different thread Piers made me aware of a whole new genre of letters, the so-called Angled Kanji letters. There are a few websites that talk about them, but I still can't identify this particular one. These Angled Kanji Mon seem even more obscure than the Genji Letters (though stylistically they look very similar).

 

https://kamon-db.net/portfolio_tag/kakujimon

[Bruce Pennington]

Thought I would consolidate some mon being discussed on 2 or 3 other threads, having to do with stars.  And please correct me if one or more of these are something else, but there are some mon having to do with 5 stars, 7 stars, etc on habaki and even a kaigunto tsuba.  Here they are:

 

This one posted by Gareth, @Butch:

 

This one posted by Rob, @robinalexander:

 

And this one by David, @m4l700:

[Lareon]

I bought a book a while ago from Ronald Watson In his sale 

 

It's an old Japanese book on mon and has hundreds upon hundreds of Mon in there and their derivatives.

(Excuse the purple lighting in the photos)

 

I'm quite happy to look up any for anyone that they can't find any info on.

Just @ me and I'll reply

 

 

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

4 hours ago, Lareon said:

hundreds upon hundreds of Mon

Wow Tony!  Does the book give the old family names they came from or is it just a description of what the image is, like "5 stars", etc?

[george trotter]

I think I once had a paperback reprint of this book "Heian Monkan" and it was very good, but no, it does not give the name linkages to each mon (if the same as the book I had).

Regards,

[Bugyotsuji]

There is no one perfect book on the subject, although some do offer a few family names for each Mon.

 

There are several internet sites too of varying helpfulness. 

 

Once you get a handful of possible family names, you can then look each of them up, in old and new printed/internet sources to narrow the field and try to find a close and/likely match.

 

Say for example your Mon book says the Ishikawa family used this Mon (or a variety of it) then in order to to double-check that, you can use J. Wiki under ‘Ishikawa’ to see what they say. Or an old 武鑑 Bukan covering the likely time period. Often they do not actually correspond. It’s a labo(u)r of love in a massive spiderweb. ❤️ 

[Lareon]

5 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Wow Tony!  Does the book give the old family names they came from or is it just a description of what the image is, like "5 stars", etc?

 

As others have said its a giant spider web. Earlier in Japanese history you needed permission to have a Mon and use it but as time went on the system got lax. Also many families had more than one Mon. 4 or 5 just to show allegiances etc etc. But then your mon could change if you were granted the right to use your superiors ( by them)

 

[Lareon]

On 12/13/2021 at 1:04 AM, CarsonSharps said:

Has anyone ever seen this one before?

 

Thanks!

 

Carson

 

 

Here is the closest symbol from my book except that little circle which doesn't fit at all and I think the second character is more like the second photo

@SteveM 

[Lareon]

On 8/26/2021 at 11:25 PM, MarcoUdin said:

Anybody seen one like this? Not so much the design but how it's been applied.

 

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Lareon, interesting material! That first one looks right. The little circle may just be a fixing rivet/pin for extra strength.

[SteveM]

 

It does look a lot like the one in the book, and I agree with Piers that the circle is a later addition, and not part of the mon. I'm just wondering about the direction (主 is oriented vertically, but on the sword the mon, if it were 主 would be oriented horizontally, which feels weird).

Anyway, we are definitely in the right neighborhood. 

 

 

 

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

The pins on these were molded into the back (if they had them, many are simply brazed), so it would be unusual to see a pin going through the design.

[george trotter]

Dear all,

May I ask a question on (I think) a "no-mon" family .

I have a sword inscribed on the blade (in English) to 2nd Lt KUME. It HAD a mon, but was picked off before surrender.

I presume his name is written using the two kanji I show here.

Well, I have never found a "picture" mon for this name Kume....is it most likely that he would have just used the 2 kanji in a circle/oval on the sword?

So just asking the mon experienced here...is there a 'picture mon for KUME....I have never found one.

Regards.

[SteveM]

I did a quick search in Japanese and came up with a list of possible mon for any family named Kume (久米). This screen grab comes from a book on the Kume family. Its a long list of kamon, and includes a lot of old favorites: plum, bamboo, quince, ginger, cloves, tomoe, lines, etc... There is nothing that shows or ranks the most common mon for the Kume family.

 

https://ameblo.jp/yabutsubakime/entry-12628772032.html

 

 

[george trotter]

Wow! Steve...I'm amazed. This will take a while to sort through and at the end, there will now be so many mon that I will still not know which one was on my sword.

But that's life - nihonto style!

Thanks,

[Toryu2020]

A perfect illustration of the folly of trying to associate a mon with any single family...

-tch

[george trotter]

Yes indeed Thomas

If we have the mon - which family name goes with it?

If we have the name - which mon goes with it?

 

 

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Sometimes you will see both Mon & family name, pretty rare but as good as you will get.

[george trotter]

Ah well, in this case at least I have his

name (Kume)

rank (2nd Lt.)

unit ("Kaede Div". (32nd Div. of the 2nd Army, Southern Area, consisting of the 210, 211, 212 Inf. Regt and support units) under Lt. Gen. Teshima.

place/date of surrender (Morotai Is. 9/9/1945 to Gen Blamey Australian I Corps).

 

So, just in case someone is walking past the Diet Library in Tokyo...?

 

 

Kaede Div is the 'Maple' Div...as it says here (Yellow (Autumn) Leaves).

[PNSSHOGUN]

Any ideas on this one?

[SteveM]

Maru-ni narabiya

（Two arrows in circle）

https://irohakamon.com/kamon/yumiya/maruninarabiya.html

[MarcoUdin]

That's a nice design, hopefully a nice blade to match!

[PNSSHOGUN]

Thank you Steve, much appreciated.

 

@MarcoUdin Yes it has a nice old blade with Bo-Hi.

[Ryu]

Hi guys do you know what crest is Igarashi? Tbh I asked my family and we don’t even know lol so I’m wondering if anyone here knows about my family crest? 

[Bugyotsuji]

Hi Ryu,

It kind of depends on which Kanji you use 五十嵐? and where in Japan your branch of the family came from originally. 

Here is an Igarashi page with three of their/your Mon/Kamon.

https://ameblo.jp/dra8gon/entry-12271576699.html

[AndyG]

Hi guys, wanted to add this mon from my Type 19 parade sword. It looks similar to the Mori crest with crane and its variations, but not quite the same as any I could find. Any idea? Thanks! 

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Google 家紋鳩丸

鳩の丸

Andy, try Hato maru or Hato no maru.