IJASWORDS Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 As owners of military swords, many of us have swords with a family or clan mon. From time to time they are posted in different threads for identification. I would love to see a dedicated thread on the photographic recording of them and contributions from members who can identity the Mon. I have attached one such mon , which looks like three open fans that I would like identified . Hopefully it will encourage those knowledgeable on the subject to help us out . I tag and catalogue my swords with all the information I can find , including the mon. If this thread is flagging , I will keep putting more up . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george trotter Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 According to Hawley's book MON 1976 p.60 it seems to be a variation of the Hiogi (fan) mon. Only one family is given for it, the SUGAU...as yours is "smooth" rather than "slatted" it must be either an allied family or maybe just some family who invented it for themselves after c.1850s. You'll need to do more searching. Regards, 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveM Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 Yes, three fans (三つ扇), or in Japanese: mitsu ōgi. Used by the Matsudaira and Igarashi families. Nice family crest. Somewhat unusual and rare, I think. https://kamon.myoji-yurai.net/kamonDetail.htm?kamonName=%E4%B8%89%E3%81%A4%E6%89%87 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PNSSHOGUN Posted August 29, 2019 Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 Yes, never seen that one before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IJASWORDS Posted August 29, 2019 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2019 Thanks Steve and George , I will add the information to sword details . And gives me a great lead into more research . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reeder Posted August 30, 2019 Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 Just adding mom to the thread, not that any of them are particularly rare. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 30, 2019 Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 Good morning Brandon From the left: Maru Ni Tsuta (Japanese Ivy within a circle) Maru Ni Katabami (Creeping Wood Sorrel within a circle) Maru Ni Go San Ni Sasa (Bamboo Leaves within a circle) Kyumai Sasa (Bamboo Leaves) Maru Ni Gashiwa (Daimyo Oak within a circle) Maru Ni Hanare Ken Katabami (Creeping Wood Sorrel leaves and swords within a circle) Maru Ni Shippo Hanabishi (Diamond shaped Water Chestnut Leaves and Good luck symbol within a circle) (Shippo originally a Buddhist term said to represent the seven treasures (Gold, Silver, Pearls, Agate, Crystal, Coral & Lapis Lazuli). 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PNSSHOGUN Posted August 30, 2019 Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 Good thread idea, nothing too unusual here. I have noticed on some Mons there is remnants of gold foiling, like mine pictured, has anyone found one with all the gold intact? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 30, 2019 Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 1st image from the left: Maru Ni Yotsume or Maru Ni Yotsu Kuginuki Kikkou Ni Umebachi Maru Ni Tachibana 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanB Posted August 30, 2019 Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 All, I have always been fascinating by kamon and have a good selection of books on the subject, the majority of which do not attribute them to families for the simple reason that, unlike European heraldry which was regulated by the heralds, there was no official regulation of them. The only book I have managed to acquire is Seishi Kamon no Jiten which lists modern family names and the kamon they use. Ian Bottomley 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IJASWORDS Posted August 30, 2019 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 Malcolm , I can see that you will be an invaluable resource . So far only Shin Gunto examples posted . I will throw in some Kai Gunto examples , one of which is on the menuki. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IJASWORDS Posted August 30, 2019 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 John just noticed that my Kai has the same mon as your Shin Gunto. One brother in the army an another the Navy ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Flynn Posted August 30, 2019 Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 As Ian has said, many families use the same mon. I discovered this many years ago, so now I don't even bother. Unless the sword has a surrender tag, or other direct links to a family, all is speculation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cisco-san Posted August 30, 2019 Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 Good morning Brandon From the left: Maru Ni Tsuta (Japanese Ivy within a circle) Maru Ni Katabami (Creeping Wood Sorrel within a circle) Maru Ni Go San Ni Sasa (Bamboo Leaves within a circle) Kyumai Sasa (Bamboo Leaves) Maru Ni Gashiwa (Daimyo Oak within a circle) Maru Ni Hanare Ken Katabami (Creeping Wood Sorrel leaves and swords within a circle) Maru Ni Shippo Hanabishi (Diamond shaped Water Chestnut Leaves and Good luck symbol within a circle) (Shippo originally a Buddhist term said to represent the seven treasures (Gold, Silver, Pearls, Agate, Crystal, Coral & Lapis Lazuli). Hello Brandon, I have a similar mon but alway thought this is Mimura family. But maybe as Divide wrote, many families used the same mon. thanks Klaus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IJASWORDS Posted August 30, 2019 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 David , I agree , my post was a tongue in cheek comment . My purpose of this thread was to identify the mons, as Malcolm has done admirably . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PNSSHOGUN Posted August 30, 2019 Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 John just noticed that my Kai has the same mon as your Shin Gunto. One brother in the army an another the Navy ? The first is a similar Mon to mine as well, how serendipitous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 30, 2019 Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 Hi Neil Image 1 is Maru Ni Hitotsu Chanomi (Tea Plant within a circle) Image 2 is Maru Ni Yotsume or Maru Ni Yotsu Kuginuki as mentioned previously Image 3 (Menuki) Looks like Maru Ni Katabami Hi Klaus, yours is known as Maru Ni Hanare Ken Katabami the illustration of the Mimura Family Kamon is known as Ken Katabami 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reeder Posted August 30, 2019 Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 Wow, many thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cisco-san Posted August 30, 2019 Report Share Posted August 30, 2019 many thanks for clarification Malcom - highly appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Pennington Posted August 31, 2019 Report Share Posted August 31, 2019 The only one I have. The guys said it was originally "Fujiwara", but today there are a number of names tied to it. It's on a kaigunto with a sharkskin saya and a mumei, 500 yr old blade. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Pennington Posted August 31, 2019 Report Share Posted August 31, 2019 One that we see occasionally, this one from Chris' thread: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/29587-gunto-pedigree-id-requested/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Pennington Posted August 31, 2019 Report Share Posted August 31, 2019 One from John's thread of a mon for Prince Asaka Yasuhiko, http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/29427-mint-condition/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 31, 2019 Report Share Posted August 31, 2019 Hi Bruce Image 1 Menuki - Sagari Fuji / Huji ( Hanging Wisteria) Image 2 Maru Ni Gosan Kiri (3 5 3 blossom Paulownia (Empress Tree) within a circle) Image 3 (Prince Asaka Yasuhiko) Wow!!!, that's not in the books, so its going to be a compilation guess. Working from the centre out, its a 16 petal Chrysanthemum - Jyuroku Giku /Kiku and 4 Tsuru (Vine Tendrils) flanked on the left and right by three leaf Daimyo Oak leaves Mitsu Gashiwa, the top and bottom have me stumped, overall in a Diamond lozenge shape Hishi gata. So Hishigata Jyuroku Giku / Kiku Yotsu Tsuru Nozoki Mitsu Gashiwa and? I used Nozoki because the three leaves are "peeping" ....Steve M!!! The Emperor's Kamon is 16 petals and 16 tips all other Imperial family and Shinto shrine variations are workings on this. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george trotter Posted August 31, 2019 Report Share Posted August 31, 2019 I should put in a better pic of that kikumon shown on Bruce/John's post just above. Families given in Hawley p.3 are non-royal families connected to the Imperial families. This "diamond" shape kiku is quite rare - Kimura, Nakamura, Toda families. Don't know how many used it in WWII. Regards, 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 31, 2019 Report Share Posted August 31, 2019 Hi George, it's known as Kiku Bishi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveM Posted August 31, 2019 Report Share Posted August 31, 2019 The Prince Asaka Yasuhiko one is challenging. For sure it is the kamon (or kashō - 家章) of the Higashikuni-no-miya branch of the Imperial family (something like the brother of the great-grandfather on the mother's side of the current emperor). I can find other references to this kamon on the web, but haven't yet found out what its called or how to describe it - except for the few sites that simply call it the Higashikuni-kiku mon. Given the complexity of the design, I'm inclined to think this may be the official name of the design. See the entry about 31 from the top here https://ippongi.org/2009/01/12/kiku/ I think the leafs are chrysanthemum leaves, and I think the flowers on the top and bottom are side-view chrysanthemums. So that would make it "ha-tsuki" and "yoko-mi" (葉付き、横見) but already the name starts to become confusingly long. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 1, 2019 Report Share Posted September 1, 2019 Hi Steve You really are like the 7th Cavalry.... "I think the leafs are chrysanthemum leaves, and I think the flowers on the top and bottom are side-view chrysanthemums. So that would make it "ha-tsuki" and "yoko-mi" (葉付き、横見) but already the name starts to become confusingly long. " I agree with you on the side leaves and I had a suspicion that the top and bottom were side views, but I wasn't sure what of. Now it makes perfect sense. As Higashikuni Mon is used as a reference to the collateral branch of the Imperial family called the Higashikuni no Miya, granted to his half brother Prince Naruhiko Higashikuni in 1906 by the Emperor Meiji. It raises the question, is the original listing on Buyee incorrect and should it be ascribed instead to Prince Naruhiko Higashikuni or his son Prince Morio Higashikuni? https://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/x639040421/detail Also, for those with an interest, this page from Steve's excellent link shows some unusual Kamon and modern logo which have almost become Kamon in their own right, including that of the author of Kwaidan - Yakumo Koizumi (Lafcadio Hearn) and Professor Donald Keene: https://ippongi.org/2011/12/22/%e5%89%b5%e4%bd%9c%e7%b4%8b%e3%80%80%ef%bc%8d%e5%ae%b6%e7%b4%8b%e3%81%ae%e8%87%aa%e7%94%b1%e3%81%95%e3%82%92%e6%9c%80%e5%a4%a7%e9%99%90%e3%81%ab%e7%94%9f%e3%81%8b%e3%81%97%e3%81%9f%e3%82%aa%e3%83%aa/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryce Posted September 1, 2019 Report Share Posted September 1, 2019 G'day Guys, Here are a couple of mine. The first I think is called toyama umebachi. Haven't indentified the second yet. Cheers, Bryce 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Pennington Posted September 1, 2019 Report Share Posted September 1, 2019 How about "Ashikaga" or a derivative? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 2, 2019 Report Share Posted September 2, 2019 Hi Bryce No 1 is known as Maru Ni Umebachi No 2 is known as Maru Ni Futatsu Biki Hi Bruce the one ascribed to Ashikaga in your illustration is a variant called Maru Ni Uhini Futatsu Biki (See how the two horizontal bars are separated from the circle). http://gari.boo.jp/cafepress/cafepress_hikiryo.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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