Restoring / cleaning old gold menuki

[ChrisM]

I’ve got some edo period gold menuki (TH graded) that I’m looking to mount. The “issue” is they are effectively black, as they have oxidized over the years.

 

The image on the NBTHK paper shows them as black.

 

I’m considering giving them to a local jeweler to clean, so they look all bright & shiny.

 

Is this a no-no, or is this a well trodden path?

 

This is oxidation, not really patina, so I’m on the fence.

 

Is this just “polishing the silver” or is it removing irreplaceable patina?

[Ken-Hawaii]

Chris, are the menuki karat-quality gold (i.e., 18kt), or just painted? Gold (the metal) doesn't oxidize until it's fairly low-karat, & even then, it should still look gold-ish, not black. Do you have access to a steam cleaner for jewelry? If I thought they were gold, that's what I would start with. Wish we knew what that "patina" is made of.

[ChrisM]

I don’t know for sure - I’ve not done any actual test (acid / float / etc). Guess that would be the next step...

[Ken-Hawaii]

Have you tried something really basic, like a magnet? The more non-destructive, the better.

[TETSUGENDO]

Chris,

 

Did you have the papers translated, there's an outside chance that they are lacquered, it's rare but not unheard of. It's strange that someone would submit them in this condition if they were supposed to be golden. Fire is a possibility for the color, the gold content would have to be quite low, as Ken noted, to turn black under ordinary conditions. Concerning 'cleaning' the last place you should take them is to your local jeweler, they need care from a specialist.

 

-S-

[Frank B]

Can you post some photos.

[Pete Klein]

A pic/scan of the paper would be helpful as well.

[Geraint]

We are not talking shakudo here are we?

 

All the best.

[shakudo]

Hi Chris, gold wont turn black unless it is treated with chemicals, and even then its really a brown. Im a jeweller and i cant get gold 9, 14, 18ct to blacken.I'm guessing you have menuki that are really dirty, possibly oil,dust even sweat. Take care with your local jeweller. No ultra sonic cleaner!!! If they were mine and Ive done this, soak in a warm soapy solution, pure soap,overnight and then lightly scrub with a soft toothbrush. Warning- check that there is not any edges of metal that seem raised off the menuki as you may have a base metal covered with gold- if so just soak and rinse.Remember no ultra sonic cleaner.

Take your time. Reards Michael.

[Tanto54]

Whatever you do, don't "give them to a local jeweler".  Based on your papers, it sounds like the menuki are good, and a jeweler without specific knowledge about how to restore Japanese togosu will almost surely ruin or significantly decrease their value.  The jeweler will use chemicals or abrasives that will destroy valuable patina and details.  As Geraint said, are you sure that they are not shakudo?  Just in case you don't already know this, Shakudo is a metal that when fresh will look like gold to some people (coperish gold color).  The maker then adds a black patina that is very important in tosogu.  If you scratch or abrade the surface it will show a golden color through the patina, but you would never want to remove that patina.  Alternatively, as Steven said, occasionally very nice old gold tosogu were lacquered black and removing that lacquer would also destroy much of the value.  I highly recommend that you do not do anything until you can find out for sure what the material  and the "black patina" are.  Once you know that, then you can figure out the best and safest way to clean.  As others have said, post a picture of the menuki and papers here, and you will probably get the answers you need.

[Brian]

Read carefully
http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/19672-old-red-gold-patina/

[Mark]

i would think TH papers would say the material

[Vermithrax16]

Chris,

 

Did you have the papers translated, there's an outside chance that they are lacquered, it's rare but not unheard of. It's strange that someone would submit them in this condition if they were supposed to be golden. Fire is a possibility for the color, the gold content would have to be quite low, as Ken noted, to turn black under ordinary conditions. Concerning 'cleaning' the last place you should take them is to your local jeweler, they need care from a specialist.

 

-S-

Before we bring out chemicals, sonic care, and tools, why not find out what the TH menuki are made of and make sure about what we are discussing. $25 to Markus Sesko will translate the papers. Easy enough.

 

Can you post some photos.

Well that would help.

[Pete Klein]

 

[Brian]

Always nice when the person seeking the advice doesn't respond

[TETSUGENDO]

Welcome to the NEW NMB.....apparently courtesy has gone the way of the 'Buggy whip' !

 

-S-

[Pete Klein]

Well, sometimes they go hand in hand...

[ChrisM]

These particular menuki actually turn out to be shakido, not gold. They're black by design, so cleaning them wouldn't go quite how I hoped it would.

 

I do have a nice gold Hozon ranked pair (just bought, and got a nice NBTHK translation from Markus!) that could use a minor cleaning. All the suggestions in this thread are great. I'll let them soak in soapy water and clean then gently with a soft tooth-brush.

 

The Markus translation of these actually calls out:

> "Pure gold, katachibori interpretation (motif forms outline of opject)"

 

I *loved* the link from Darcy, summarized as "Don't be stupid! Gold doesn't turn black!". All I could think of after reading that was... "Duh, how could I be so stupid?".

 

Thanks everyone.

 

I'm still new to this hobby, and very much learning as I go.

 

//Chris

[ChrisM]

We are not talking shakudo here are we?

 

All the best.

 

Turns out, we are.

 

I'm still learning the difference between all of these materials.

 

The learning experience is a fun one, and a bit more expensive than my wife would like, but... it's fun.

 

//Chris

[ChrisM]

$25 to Markus Sesko will translate the papers. Easy enough.

 

Markus is fantastic. He's now translated ~10 things for me, and his work is fast, inexpensive, and seems to be of the highest quality.

 

I would encourage anyone new to this (as I am) to have him translate things whenever possible. Preferably *before* purchasing.

 

//Chris

[TETSUGENDO]

Chris,

 

SHAKUDO, well that's "a horse of a different color"! Good, now you can dispense with all the cleaning drama. An yes, using the many talents of Marcus is money well spent...very wise of you.

 

Cheers,

-S-

[ChrisM]

SHAKUDO, well that's "a horse of a different color"! Good, now you can dispense with all the cleaning drama. An yes, using the many talents of Marcus is money well spent...very wise of you.

 

I may learn slowly, but I get there eventually.

 

When reading about Shakudo, I read "Mixture of gold and copper" and jumped to some incorrect conclusion.

 

It's not like this is hard - even the wikipedia page says:

Shakudō (赤銅) is a Japanese billon of gold and copper (typically 4–10% gold, 96–90% copper), [...] which can be treated to develop a black, or sometimes indigo, patina, resembling lacquer.

 

 

Ah well. Live and learn.

 

Next up: Photography of all my cool new stuff. I'm an experienced photographer, but shooting items as nuanced and reflective as a katana is going to be difficult. That'll be my weekend project next week. I'm hoping to get some nice dramatic shots using fog / dry-ice, black backgrounds, and some interesting lighting effects.

 

//Chris

[Stephen]

Ya need buggy whipped for not starting out with photos... Lol kidding..NOT!

[ChrisM]

Ya need buggy whipped for not starting out with photos... Lol kidding..NOT!

 

Well, that takes things in a totally different direction.

 

Photo's are time consuming. Most of my work is with speedlights & high-end studio lights - both of which are not relevant for nihonto related work due to glare. For shooting Nihanto (and accessories) hot lights (or at least "Hot LEDs") seems like the way to go (I have a set, along with barn doors, grids, and softboxes ordered). Most of my other lighting gear (arms, clamps, backgrounds, etc) seem like it'll work. I suspect I'll need a polarizer, but my good circular polarizer is a 77mm usually used outdoors. The glass I'll probably end up using is a 50mm f/1.4 lens, as it's easy - but the 77mm filter won't fit. My only 77mm lens that's suitable is the 85 F/1.4, which may be too long; using a 70-200 seems silly; using a 24-70 F/2.8 won't let me play with depth-of-field. For crazy bokeh I may use a 105 F/1.4, which needs an 82mm filter. Then questions like "I want to shoot at F/1.4, with hot lights, so I need a neutral density filter" come up. It's a long list... Much of the expensive stuff I already have, but all the accessories are time consuming...

 

For lifts / mounts so the blades are slightly separate from the background. I bought a variety set of black/white rubber grommets, as those seem suitable and not damaging.

 

As part of my planned shoot, I bought a $50 fog machine, and will probably pickup some Dry Ice as well, and perhaps some focused colored lights (my green WickedLaser is... awesome, but probably too strong to safely use with a highly reflective surface like a polished katana). That should bring some drama...

 

//Chris

[Brian]

Or you could post some simple cellphone pics
They do the job perfectly well for showing what you have. Shakudo is a quality material when done well, and since they are TH, I expect they look great.
Personally, well done shakudo high end menuki look better than pure gold (to me)
Show some pics when you can.
 

[Stephen]

Oh your one of them ppl....lol

As Brian said quick cell shots show what you have.

As such

[ChrisM]

Yes, “one of those people” sums it up. heh.

 

Going hiking with me is agony for my wife, as I spend too much time composing images. Even my kids run when they see me break out a big (aka: not cell phone) camera...

 

I should have the gold Menuki in a few days, and will try my hand at pictures (as well as the blades and other bits).

 

Still looking for a pair of gold Goto dragons withy NBTHK papers...

[Guido]

Let me get this straight: instead of taking a quick pic with your cell phone (too time consuming?), you get into a lengthy reply about your photo equipment. I don‘t know where the fog machine, dry ice, and colored lights come in, but I doubt all that stuff will contribute to getting clear pictures. A polarizer will do you no good, since it doesn‘t work on metallic surfaces. 50 mm and F8 would be my choice, btw, but that‘s probably too easy for you ...

[TETSUGENDO]

Chris,

 

I may learn slowly, but I get there eventually.

 

When reading about Shakudo, I read "Mixture of gold and copper" and jumped to some incorrect conclusion.

 

It's not like this is hard - even the wikipedia page says:

 

 

Ah well. Live and learn.

 

Next up: Photography of all my cool new stuff. I'm an experienced photographer, but shooting items as nuanced and reflective as a katana is going to be difficult. That'll be my weekend project next week. I'm hoping to get some nice dramatic shots using fog / dry-ice, black backgrounds, and some interesting lighting effects.

 

//Chris

??????? Maybe, you can 'Dig up' Zacherly for your production....seems the only thing that's missing!

 

-S-

[ChrisM]

> A polarizer will do you no good, since it doesn‘t work

> on metallic surfaces.

 

I’ve not tried yet, but I’ve never heard anything like that. As I light things, there will be glare from light bouncing off the metal. Why wouldn’t a polarizer help with that? Most shots I see folks take are full of glare... so either they are misplacing lights or something else is happening.

 

> 50 mm and F8 would be my choice

 

I’ll start there. I’m just really looking forward to a day of playing and seeing what I can get. Hopefully I can go from “basic, and technically good” into something more dramatic and arty.