Interesting sword just sold

[Surfson]

It has an interesting inscription that seems to say something like Okubo Genban Kashira Tadanari Kyu Ju ichi sai.  Could only guess the meaning, so hope that some of you A listers can let us know.

 

 

[Surfson]

Sukemitsu Saku.  Went for $6500.  In shingunto mounts with owner inscription and nice menuki with mon in shakudo

[Ray Singer]

This sword was floating around the various discussion groups and being emailed about all through the summer. Believe I first saw photos and offered a translation in early June.

It is a shoji mei stating ownership by Okubo Genba (no) kami Tadanari, at the age of 91 years. The inscription ends “kore wo sasu”, indicating that he used or carried this sword.

A friend provided this information: "He died at age 94 years. He was the fourth son of Okubo Tadayo and a retainer of Tokugawa Ieyasu. He fought in the seige of Odawara and the Battle of Osaka Castle."

[ChrisW]

That is some really cool provenance there.

[1tallsword]

Seen this and watched it end. Was gonna buy it just for the history and fully respect it as such even in its current condition . however someone did take a heavy grinder to this blade which is a shame and I do hope it can be saved.good luck to the new owner, I wasn't willing to roll the dice to find out how deep the grinder went.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Not bad for those two swords, supposedly he got them both for $20.....

[Surfson]

It would be a nice sword to own, but I didn't bid on it.  I felt that it could be polished easily.  

[Gilles]

I was also following that sale.

I own a sword signed KANESHIGE with the same shoji mei (I will post pictures this week-end).

I was wondering, how was it possible to have two swords with (what I believe) exactly the same mei ????

[pcfarrar]

I was wondering, how was it possible to have two swords with (what I believe) exactly the same mei ????

 

They probably came from the same Edo period sword dealer, easy way to get some extra profit on a sword.

[Ray Singer]

The kinzogan-mei seemed a bit fanciful, which is why I did not make an offer when this sword made its rounds. It may in fact be completely fine, but I had some skepticism and am not completely surprised to hear of another sword with an identical shoji-mei.

[Surfson]

i agree Ray.  There is no way to assess the veracity of the inlay, although this is true for most swords with extra information.  There must be a way to judge when the inlay was actually made, or even whose hand it was done in (i.e. who made the inlay).   If it was contemporaneous to the passing of Tadanari, the supposed famous previous owner, that might reinforce the possibility that it is correct, as opposed to it having been done in Meiji or late Edo.  

[Gilles]

Gentlemen,

 

Here are the pictures of the nakago of the sword I own. It is signed KANESHIGE and is possibly from the end of the koto era or the beginning of the shinto era.

The mei seems to be quite the same but as I am not a specialist, details can escape me. Nevertheless I can see that two kanji are different.

 

Ray, is it possible for you give me the full translation of the two MEI and their differences ? Are those differences explicable ?????

 

I need some help on that one.

 

Please feel free to make comments.

[Ray Singer]

...

 

Edited, I will review once I arrive at my destination in a few hours. At a glance, the shoji-mei itself appears to be identically structured (with a different name from Tadanari).

[Gilles]

Dear Ray,

 

You are right. Moreover, those two inlayed signatures seems to be made by the same hand.

[Tom Darling]

How many more are out there?  Peace.

 

 

Tom D.

[Gilles]

The point is, are they legit or was it done in Edo times (or latter) by unscrupulous swords sellers ?????

[Ray Singer]

I agree Gilles, it seems clear that we are seeing the same hand here.

 

[Ray Singer]

Gilles, I need to defer to someone else on the name highlighted here, which replaces Tadanari on the eBay sword. I do not know the correct reading for this portion on your sword.

 

 

[Gilles]

Ray,

 

Thank you very much for your help. I have the translation somewhere. When I find it we will compare.

On the sword sold on ebay, except TADANARI, can you give me the full translation of that MEI ?

[Ray Singer]

Gilles, I believe the meaning is Tadanari, head of the Okubo household, user/wore this at the age of 91.

 

Okubo (大久保) Genba-no-kami (玄番頭) Tadanari (忠成) kyu ju ichi sai (九十一歳)  kore wo sasu (指之)

[Ray Singer]

Perhaps someone here with more familiarity with the language can better translate '玄番頭'. I am uncertain if head-of-household is the best translation or if this is some other type of more formal title.

[Surfson]

Ray, are you concerned that these were written to deceive?  If not, then what is the explanation of the same story with different subjects?  

[Ray Singer]

Hi Robert, as I was saying earlier I have some skepticism about the shoji-mei however I would also like to know the reading of those two kanji in Gilles' sword. It does not appear to be a name.

[Brian]

Moved here for better chance at a translation.

[Nobody]

Hi Robert, as I was saying earlier I have some skepticism about the shoji-mei however I would also like to know the reading of those two kanji in Gilles' sword. It does not appear to be a name.

 

所持 - possession

[Nobody]

Perhaps someone here with more familiarity with the language can better translate '玄番頭'. I am uncertain if head-of-household is the best translation or if this is some other type of more formal title.

 

玄番頭 is a mere official rank.

[Gilles]

Dear Nobody,

 

Is it possible for you to translate the whole signature of my sword ?

[Nobody]

Dear Nobody,

 

Is it possible for you to translate the whole signature of my sword ?

Except its date, Ray correctly translated the inscription in his posts (#3, #20).

 

寛文八年戊申五月吉辰 - Kanbun 8th year Tsuchinoe-Saru (1668), 5th month, a lucky day

大久保(Okubo) 玄番頭(Genba-no-kami) 所持(possession) 九十一歳(91 years old) 指之(wears this)

[Ray Singer]

Thank you for clarifying this. 

 

玄番頭 is a mere official rank.

 

Kind regards,

Ray

[Gilles]

Dear Nobody and Ray,

 

Thank you so much for your help.

 

One last thing eludes me.

 

If I understand right, the sword on EBAY was signed :

 

Okubo (大久保) Genba-no-kami (玄番頭) Tadanari (忠成) kyu ju ichi sai (九十一歳)  kore wo sasu (指之) which can be translated  "Okubo Genba (no) kami Tadanari, at the age of 91 years used or carried this sword".

 

My sword is signed :

 

大久保(Okubo) 玄番頭(Genba-no-kami) 所持(possession) 九十一歳(91 years old) 指之(wears this) which can be translated "in possession of Okubo Genba (no) kami, at the age of 91 years used or carried this sword".

 

Am I right in the translation of my sword ????

 

On my sword, does the mention OKUBO GENBA-NO-KAMI was enough to identify a person ? or is the name of a person missing ?

 

Last but not least, was it a normal structure of phrase used at that time ???? In short does it make sense ?????

 

 

I promise that after that I stop the questioning.