photo kantei/treat

[Darcy]

Obviously these are impossible to get! Only a fooooool would attempt to do kantei from a photograph! Beware! Doooom! Dooooooom! Beware! Abandon All Faith Ye Who Post In This Thread! I am giving no verbal description for you to look up in a book! Be warned!

 

Unless you're an insider that I will email the answer to in exchange for favors.

 

So only the extremely foolish or completely cheating types will dare to offer an answer!

 

Please give period, school, and if you have the extreme inside track or are extremely bold, the smith!

 

I just wanted to share another photograph. I've been trying very hard to improve every time I get behind the camera and I have been very happy with the results of the San Francisco shoot after I studied the results of what I did in Chicago.

 

Nagasa is 26.8 cm.

 

 

Higher (but not full) resolution is here: http://www.nihonto.ca/kantei-180.jpg

[jrs]

Rai?

James

[saemonjonosuke]

Okay ,,, anyway.

 

Soshu Yukimitsu

[Darcy]

I'm middle level, I know enough to get myself in trouble, big trouble.

 

That said as a disclaimer, when I was 0 level I sat down with Cary Condell and did kantei on some of his swords. One good thing he stressed was to make these answers in order:

 

- period

- tradition (Bizen, Soshu, etc.)

- school (Osafune, etc.)

- smith

 

It was one of the good things that he stressed and I remembered.

 

Because partial answers count... and very often if you get the period and are sure about it, then this is going to narrow down the potential answers for the rest of it. Similarly with tradition/school. If you have to go straight to a smith you're going to be stuck playing pin the tail on the donkey with 35,000 donkeys... just come up with the most narrow answer that you can get to. If you are a beginner, focus on getting period straight. Then at the next level try to get tradition straight. Next level, maybe schools... and so on. I am happy if I can get to the school.

 

This is a game of narrowing down, throwing answers away, and at the end, what you're left with should be what you go with. It's what Holmes did. I think.

 

Hints:

 

 

So make note of three things about the nakago. Add in the nagasa as is. One of the items in the nakago is slightly contradictory with what the other two items plus the length tell you. That slight contradiction then allows you to lock down the period to roughly maybe a window of only about 30 years. With this in hand, it dramatically reduces the available choices. One other feature of the tanto is a very strong indicator of the school, which is what makes this such an excellent kantei blade.

 

[jrs]

ok, I'll do it your way.

Nambunkucho (spelling?) period

Yamashiro tradition

Rai school

Smith?

I don't have books with me. Just gut reaction to the blade.

James

[Ronin 47]

All give this a shot.

 

period Nambokucho

- tradition Soshu

- school O-SA

- smith Sa Yukihiro?

 

That's my best guess.

 

Austin

[Jean]

Darcy wrote :

 

Obviously these are impossible to get! Only a fooooool would attempt to do kantei from a photograph! Beware! Doooom! Dooooooom! Beware! Abandon All Faith Ye Who Post In This Thread! I am giving no verbal description for you to look up in a book! Be warned!

 

You should be ashamed of yourself!!!

You are even naughtier than I thought!!!

you were not spanked enough when young!!!

 

(Have I forgotten something in my kantei )

 

I let pass this one since I am off tomorrow for a fortnight and that for once, I have to work and earn my money (instead of cheating on my boss as usual )

[Brian]

Blade is machi okuri, and suriage. Judging by where the ana are, it would have been quite long for the proportions originally, and with no sori.

To me it looks like the nakago was reshaped slightly too, and the curve appears to be added around the lower ana?

Hamon doesn't look like it continues too far down the nakago though if it is o-suriage?

haven't drawn any conclusions from this yet while here at work, just commenting on what I see.

 

Brian

 

Edit to add: Actually, looking at the nakago, the machi have been moved up, but I don't think the nakago has been shortened? It is quite long now, and with the machi where the upper ana is, the nakago would have been original I think.

[Jean]

No time for Kantei, but here is another hint :

 

 

In the high Rez pictures, unless I am mistaken, the author (as a mischief - even naughtier than I thought :D :D ) has erased by photoshop the horimono (s)

 

[DirkO]

Aaaah I was suspecting this as well :-) At least I'm not the only one who saw that the hada-area is really blurred near the nakago...

[Brian]

Furisode-gata nakago points us to late Kamakura? now have to narrow down when such long tanto were produced, with mu-sori...

 

Brian

 

Edit to add: early Nambokucho fits the length

[Stephen]

[Brian]

I was asked if I am sure we are looking at Furisode-gata, and to be honest..no I am not sure

Just the impression I get from it. Would like other comments on this.

 

Brian

[saemonjonosuke]

I see, I was to quickly with my answer.

 

Period – late kamakura.

Tradition – Soshu

School – mainline soshu

Smith – Yukimitsu

[Eric H]

This hirazukuri muzori Tanto reveals in the higher resolution a tight itame hada with an abundance of nie along the hamon and inside the ha. The most remarkable characteristic is the boshi in tsukiage ni togaru. This kind of boshi correlates with the works made by O-Sa and his school. One could also see a low koshiba.

 

Kamakura / Nambokucho

Soshu

Chikuzen Sa

my guess : O-Sa or one of his followers

 

Eric

[Darcy]

One note: I *never* alter a blade's structure. I don't take flaws out or hide anything on a blade. My photoshop work is entirely in adjusting exposure, lighting and removing the inevitable dust. As you can see there are some scratches on the blade and I leave those in, the photos have to tell the truth about the sword.

 

If I take something out for kantei there is a black box left behind rather than a photoshopping blur. Also, if I were to take something out, I am better than the Aoi Arts guy and you would not see a mess behind :-). So you have to trust me on the top part.

 

Accuracy is extremely important to me, if I'm not accurate then there is no point in the photography.

 

I am off to the forest for a couple of days, I will leave this one as an open question and post the answer when I get back. It's a good study piece.

[Jean]

I apologize Darcy for having suspected only one second that you had erased the horimono by photoshop. I won't do it again, I was not intending to offend you.

But I would like to know what happened to the low part of the blade where almost no hada can be seen? Always nosy and

 

The blade is of Soshu influence, end of kamakura beginning of nambokucho. Soshu school -

The boshi is typical of the school :

 

http://www.sho-shin.com/sadamn2.htm

Look at the Nakago

http://www.sho-shin.com/sai1.htm

Look at the description of the Boshi : BOSHI is a strongly brushed TSUKI-AGE

[Brian]

Jean,

Excellent example! To me it is a great match, and I think Eric got in there just in time :D

Chikuzen Sa is my bid too. Sugata matches late Kamakura early Nambokucho, narrow with little sori. I would think early Sa based on the lack of sori.

Boshi is correct, with long kaeri, and I think the defining characteristic is what I think is yaki kuzure in the monouchi.

 

Brian

[Ted Tenold]

I'll demonstrate a conspicuous silence on this one as I do have previous exposure to it from some years back.

 

The comment Darcy makes about there being important kantei recognition point in it is a key element and requires no description. It is evident and recognizable in the body of the sword from the images, even if the nakago were not exposed.

 

Lovely, lovely, piece.

[Jean]

Brian wrote :

Jean,

Excellent example! To me it is a great match, and I think Eric got in there just in time

 

Brian, for O Sa, gunome mixed wjth togari are missing. Eric, what do you think of it?

 

BTW, gunome mixed with togari remains in sue soshu influenced schools - in Shimada, Ise Muramasa ...

I have a Shimada Hirosuke tanto which is a text book of this kind of hamon.

[Guido]

Having myself outed before as a photo-Kantei-hater, I still hope I can play .

 

Anyhow, my books are still in transit, so I'll do a Kantei "from the belly" without a long explanation (kind of an "all or nothing", first impression Kantei):

 

Sôshû Yukimitsu

 

[Brian]

Of course you can play..just as long as you understand that ppl who criticize photo kantei are not allowed to get the answer correct.

So better make sure that your bid is not even close. :lol: :D

 

Brian

[Guido]

So better make sure that your bid is not even close.

You can count on me, especially since my monitor is still not properly calibrated .

[Brian]

Well..I've been flip/flopping all over the place with this one, with some ridiculous assumptions.

So I am going to wait until I can hit the books this weekend and try and make an informed decision about it.

I would like some comments about whether this would be classed as furisode or funagata nakago though. I know it seems like an elementary decision, but looking at http://www.ncjsc.org/nakago-1.html and http://token.cz/external/meiboku/guide/ ... /index.htm the lines blur a bit. I thought furisode didn't have this much taper, but the websites seem to differ. Any thoughts.

 

Brian

[saemonjonosuke]

The nakago looks funagata.

Consider that the blade is machi-okure and the mekugi below is original.

That’s what I think

 

Btw.. Sa school is a good option when you judge on sugata and soshu style.

[Eric H]

Jean,

 

I try to answer as well as I can. Having checked my manuals in regard to Samonji I've found 10 Tanto's.

 

Nagasa : from 21.05 cm up to 25.15 cm

Sori : modest uchizori - koshizori - sori almost negligible - slight sori

Hamon : hiro-suguha mixed with notare - chu-suguha - ko-notare mixed with gunome - modestly undulating - ko-notare mixed with ko-gunome and togari variation - shallowly undulating with gunome whose tops in places are pointed

 

In common to all blades are the "thrusting" boshi's.

 

Austin gave a vote for Sa Yukihiro. I have found one exemplary piece : Chikushu no Ju Yukihiro, KOKUHO, 1350, 23.4 cm. This Tanto is in totally accordance with the workmanship of O-Sa.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Personally, i would lean toward Soshu Yukimitsu.

[Jean]

http://www.nihonto.com/abtartyukimitsu.html

http://www.sho-shin.com/shintog2.htm

 

I am not satisfied with the boshi

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Maybe you're right Jean, however the sugata and the kitae match well.

 

 

 

I think he blade we try to kantei is a bit too long to be O-Sa's, there is one which with a nagasa of 25.5cm is considered as a sun-nobi tanto (Nihonto koza translation volume IX page F28)

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

So only the extremely foolish or completely cheating types will dare to offer an answer!

 

...hence, I can't call me out... :D

 

My opinion is that Eric got it right from his first post.

 

- Nanbokucho

- Soshu

- O-Sa school

- a smith that made little longer blades a litlle later the O-Sa and that I'm not able to nail

(yet).

 

Of course in case of Atari (well, dozen...) this late reply shouldn't be considered as mine but rather a support to Eric's one.