O-suriage question.

[Bungo]

Gang,

not a sword guy so I have this silly question.....

 

here's the scenerio.

An early koto tachi , due to some unknown reason or a short dude inherited the long sword, whatever, was shortened

ASSUME the owner had it " shorten " drastically in, say , shinshinto time. The original nakago is GONE totally with the " new " nakago in " new " patina ( anyway, doesn't show the appropiate age ).

 

If submitted to shinsa, would they " dismiss " it as a shinshinto koto revival sword, or can/would they see through this O-suriage new nakago and call it an early koto ( i.e. stick their neck out and not being " safe " with the opinion ) ?

 

I await for opinions/thoughts .........

 

milt

[jrs]

I may be wrong on this, but, I would think at shinsa that the remaining shape, kitae and hamon would be enough to date the blade and give it a correct attribution. I'm not sure about a brand new looking nakago though. I have heard of references to swords being rejected because the patina didn't look right. There are probably ways to work around that with chemicals and artificial aging if deemed appropriate. I have seen in person a blade that looked so pristine and perfect that you would think it was made in the last 100 years that actually was papered as an Ichimonji Yoshioka blade. It was just in fantastic condition. It took the shinsa team an extra 6 weeks to come to that decision but...

 

James

[Grey Doffin]

If the work of the blade is right for an important early tachi, the shinsa team most likely will paper it to the early smith or school. If the work isn't important or the blade is in bad shape (very tired maybe), then it is unlikely to get a paper to any smith, school, or time period.

Grey

[remzy]

I am with James, a koto blade would "easily" (to some extents, for the shinsa experts) be detected by the hada color and grain, i have red several time that koto steel as a blue ting, and unless i am turning crazy as i get older (no comments), i think that i am noticing this aswell! The hamon and sugata are another good way to get hints, but the shortened blade were made by smiths whom were skilled too so, sometime the new nakago is so well executed that you could

 

As mentioned, the nakago is a good way to put a date on a sword cration date but you cannot rely on this alone since so many blade has been shortened, often only to comply with the legislations that has been passed over the years concerning the maximum lenght of swords one could carry.

[Bungo]

" i have red several time that koto steel as a blue ting, and unless i am turning crazy as i get older (no comments), i think that i am noticing this aswell! "

one of the side effect of viagra ..................

 

ok, seriously, if nakago plays such a " small " part, then why everyone hyperventilate about cleaning the nakago to the extent that oiling it may be not kosher ?

p.s. remember I did say " silly question ", so kindly flame with restraint and try not to insult my manhood

milt

[nagamaki - Franco]

As long as the nakago is refinished appropriately for the sword it should have a good chance at shinsa. If the shinsa team feels in any way that something isn't quite kosher, especially if meant to fool, they'll be reaching for pink! Cleaning the nakago is simply asking for trouble, don't do it! Oiling the nakago is fine when done properly, see the NBTHK sword care article on the JSS/US website. The rule of thumb is when in doubt leave it alone!

 

The 'greater', hmm, 'broader' question that is, which should be discussed is " polish on the sword " in addition to the nakago, when thinking about submitting a sword to shinsa, that goes X 2 for mumei blades.

[Jean]

Remy wrote :

 

I am with James, a koto blade would "easily" (to some extents, for the shinsa experts) be detected by the hada color and grain, i have red several time that koto steel as a blue ting, and unless i am turning crazy as i get older (no comments), i think that i am noticing this aswell!

 

IMHO, No.

 

Shinsa is facing Kantei game - Steel colour is one of the last thing which can confirm/infirm a special school/province (Norishige, Ko Uda ...).

 

Generalizing Hada color is (always IMHO) an old Koto Urban Legend.

All koto schools had not this kind of steel, depending on location (mineral ore)

 

There may be a reference to dark steel if any in a kantei dark Jigane) but not blue.

 

Furthermore, it depends on the polisher, there are polishing process to darken or not the steel colour (Nigui)

 

http://www.chineseswordsocietyuk.com/fo ... /t-38.html

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

"ok, seriously, if nakago plays such a " small " part, then why everyone hyperventilate about cleaning the nakago to the extent that oiling it may be not kosher ?

 

Hi Milt.

 

I think that oiling the nakago is relatively a taboo. In effect a very small amount of oil can/should be applied on the Nakago even of very ancient swords (It's considered a way to

preserve already stabilized patina) and Kunihira Kawachi in his

"The Art of the Japanese Sword as Taught by the Experts" speaks about oiling the

Nakago of their newly made swords the same way as made for the blade (I belong to the

traditionalists and prefer to have it slowly rusting EDIT TO AVOID CONFUSION on newly made swords).

I think that once (when swords were used as weapons) oiling the

nakago was a no-no because the friction of the tang into a well-fitting Tsuka was important in

holding the blade in place. Oiling the nakago would have diminished this friction a lot, not a

good thing under an utilitarian point of view. Now this is no more a concern EDIT but for Battodo etc. .

 

The patina (you refer to cleaning the nakago) is a different matter.

The more information you have on the sword the better for judgment.

Cleaning away the patina (and possibly altering the Mei and yasurime) means to lose info.

Not good.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[Stephen]

[the friction of the tang into a well-fitting Tsuka was important in

holding the blade in place.

 

really never gave it much thought but would not the slanting Yasurime all so serve in doing that?

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Forgive this offtopic (obviously it's not the only one )

 

There may be a reference to dark steel if any in a kantei dark Jigane) but not blue.

 

 

I wonder in which purpose Namikawa sells this

[Brian]

Well..obviously it's used in the manufacture of the various nugui. Which do change the tint and color of the steel to a cetain extent, and that is why there is a good article out there somewhere (does anyone remember where?) on not to rely too much on the colour of the steel, as polishers can alter that. But I do believe that experts can tell something about the steel colour to a certain extent, but generally you can't rely on it which is what i think we are all saying.

 

Brian

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

[the friction of the tang into a well-fitting Tsuka was important in

holding the blade in place.

 

really never gave it much thought but would not the slanting Yasurime all so serve in doing that?

 

Yes, that's the reason for putting yasurime on the tang. to make as much friction as

possible.

[Jacques D.]

[the friction of the tang into a well-fitting Tsuka was important in

holding the blade in place.

 

really never gave it much thought but would not the slanting Yasurime all so serve in doing that?

 

The nakago shape is finished by filing down. Yasurime is an outcome and if it is a friction with the tsuka it is not the principal purpose

 

 

Always off topic.

[Stephen]

Jacq

 

always is forever, and we wonder why newibes dont want to jump in. Yasurime i do not belive is a by product. Brian want me to split this into a new thread? it was just a radom thought on what Carlo posted

[Brian]

Well..it's an interesting question, and to be honest, I don't agree 100% with either of the 2 theories ..

That being said, it is just my opinion and I could be 100% wrong.

Jacques said the yasurime are a result of finishing off the nakago by filing to shape. The precision by which this is (and was) done would tend to make me believe they were a lot more deliberate than that. Some are filed individually and I don't see them just being a by-product of the manufacture process. Most show a great deal of precision and forethought.

 

I also don't see them being done purely for friction in the tsuka. They may indeed assist with this, but I can't see this being the original intention. There are other shapes and marks that would have done this job better, and if they are that prominent that they keep the nakago in the tsuka, then removing the blade a few times would just file the inside of the tsuka larger and would be undesirable. I have no doubt they do help with friction, but if that is the main intention..that I have my doubts about.

 

To me they would appear to be simply traditional and a way of finishing off the nakago in a pleasing and individual way. Different schools taught different styles, leading to these styles being carried on down the line. They do indeed finish off the nakago in a pleasant way, and maybe even helped when handling the bare blade so that it was less likely to slip out of the hand. Helped keep the blade in the tsuka, and a way of adding to your own personal craftsmanship and signature. So maybe a combination of all these factors, with no one reason being prominent?

 

As I said..just my opinion, and would be happy to be proven wrong. I doubt we need a separate thread for this...the original one was general enough that i don't think we have to worry about being too off topic.

 

Brian

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

I have no doubt they do help with friction, but if that is the main intention..that I have my doubts about.

 

Wish Keith Larman (or another good Tsuka maker) was around just now.

There was a good post (or thread?) somewhere on SFI but think that the diplomatic

way you've managed this matter is the best solution for everybody.

[Jean]

Stephen wrote :

 

Yasurime i do not belive is a by product.

 

Of course, otherwise it would mean that there are about ten different ways to file into shape a nakago resulting each in different yasurime styles.

 

Yasurime are a mix of school traditions, era (Kiri, kesho). they are also as it has been written by Japanese authorities, a kantei point.

[Jacques D.]

hi,

 

Jacques said the yasurime are a result of finishing off the nakago by filing to shape. The precision by which this is (and was) done would tend to make me believe they were a lot more deliberate than that. Some are filed individually and I don't see them just being a by-product of the manufacture process. Most show a great deal of precision and forethought.

 

neither precludes the other

 

 

 

Stephen, still :?

[Bungo]

" As I said..just my opinion, and would be happy to be proven wrong. I doubt we need a separate thread for this...the original one was general enough that i don't think we have to worry about being too off topic.

 

Brian "

 

beg your pardon but I think that's for the ORIGINAL poster to decide on that issue..............

but..........carry on, let you off this time.( but don't think i didn't notice my African big knife hamon message was yanked unceremoniously, )

 

milt

[Bungo]

" Yasurime are a mix of school traditions, era (Kiri, kesho). they are also as it has been written by Japanese authorities, a kantei point."

 

Jean et al,

So you think the dude that did the O-suriage will fallow the " original school/maker " yasurime ? or he just did it his way regardless of school .............

 

 

milt

[Jean]

Milt wrote

Jean et al,

So you think the dude that did the O-suriage will fallow the " original school/maker " yasurime ? or he just did it his way regardless of school .............

 

I never say that. Generally shortened blades wear Kiri yasurime. But some "shorteners" have scupulously reconstitute the yasurime after small shortening/machi Okuri blades but not in O suriage (as far as I know).

[Darcy]

A roughly shaped sword before polish shows "machining" marks all over. Regular and rough machining of the nakago would definitely be in the best interests of staying in the tsuka. It gives the nakago teeth to bite into the wood and hold it in place.

 

Yasurime are not the product of filing the nakago, they are incised with fine tagane (as far as I understand it). That is, they are called "filemarks" not because they are left by a file, but because they are produced the same way one produces a file and the results *look* like a file.

 

To produce a file you cut into the steel with a harder steel chisel to leave behind teeth. You can also press it with a cutting wheel. But this is neither here nor there.

 

I would expect that yasurime come about from:

 

1. nakago were left rough finished in order to adhere better into tsuka for a tight and robust fit, this would be a pretty instinctive move

 

2. craftsmen who wanted to expend the time and do their product one level better would have taken the roughly finished nakago, put a finer finish on it then carefully inscribed the yasurime... those being more careless, less time, less interested, less sophisticated would have put in less sophisticated work... on the one extreme then you have a smith putting in all of his marks with a fine chisel, on the other end you have a smith taking a rough stone and rubbing a pattern in

 

3. some yasurime are considered very difficult to inscribe properly, to the point of a "how the hell did they do this" in the case of the cross-hatching of Yamato through Hosho and into Mino, they look simple but there is an article in the English Token Bijutsu that modern smiths have major issues trying to perfectly replicate this work and that special tagane have had to been developed to make a concerted attempt... in this case it would have been tools handed down from teacher to student, and techniques to make the tools, that would almost be taken for granted (possibly) or a here is our secret way kind of thing... and at some point lost, so a search for the trick of how they did it goes on. When you try to reverse engineer sometimes you arrive at a similar way of accomplishing the same goal and you never really know if you nail it. But it does show that yasurime are more than just running a file over nakago, they were thought of carefully, like the rest of the sword.

 

4. form almost always follows function, so a feature has to be looked at and realized that it is there for a purpose... later enhancements to the form can end up being cosmetic... keisho yasurime, mt. fuji in the hamon, are cosmetic spins on elements that still retain function (yasurime for nakago friction, hamon for martensitic hardness). The intermediate stage of enhancing the function arrives from either outright experimentation for improvement or accidental discovery... could be that originally nakago was finished like the rest of the sword, carefully and it was discovered that Joe down the block who wasn't putting the effort in and leaving his nakago with rough shaping marks performed better in practice, didn't break as many mekugiana and so a polished finish on the nakago was abandoned.

 

I would think that the practice of leaving nakago to rust came from, as was pointed out above, not oiling the nakago because that was a Really Bad Idea if you wanted to keep sword in tsuka. By not oiling, eventually you lead to rusting. An oxidized surface is less slick than a fresh steel surface and further contributes to friction with wood... so you'd also end up eventually with the concept of not cleaning nakago as well as not oiling them. By the time we get around to looking at centuries old swords you gain the additional concept of wanting to leave it as is as patina helps us tell age.

 

And that brings us around now to worrying about preservation. I do oil my nakago, rarely but I want to be sure to not lose the yasurime in my Rai Kunitoshi or to see the signature or date degrade. Status of patina is far secondary to this to me.

[DirkO]

3. some yasurime are considered very difficult to inscribe properly, to the point of a "how the hell did they do this" in the case of the cross-hatching of Yamato through Hosho and into Mino, they look simple but there is an article in the English Token Bijutsu that modern smiths have major issues trying to perfectly replicate this work and that special tagane have had to been developed to make a concerted attempt... in this case it would have been tools handed down from teacher to student, and techniques to make the tools, that would almost be taken for granted (possibly) or a here is our secret way kind of thing... and at some point lost, so a search for the trick of how they did it goes on. When you try to reverse engineer sometimes you arrive at a similar way of accomplishing the same goal and you never really know if you nail it. But it does show that yasurime are more than just running a file over nakago, they were thought of carefully, like the rest of the sword.

 

 

Could it be yasurime were used to make it more difficult to counterfeit the smith's work ? If it's like you said, with tools handed down and tradition and so on, and it is in fact used for kantei, then yasurime could be a way to do this.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

some yasurime are considered very difficult to inscribe properly, to the point of a "how the hell did they do this" in the case of the cross-hatching of Yamato through Hosho and into Mino, they look simple but there is an article in the English Token Bijutsu that modern smiths have major issues trying to perfectly replicate this work and that special tagane have had to been developed to make a concerted attempt...

 

Higaki come to mind. Guess your post is a good one to be put into the FAQ for newcomers.

 

[Ted Tenold]

On Yasurimei;

 

Are they decorative or functional? Yes

An extension of the school or personal? Yes

Creation of form or refinement? Yes

 

On Nugui;

 

The belief that nugui imparts or "changes" the color of steel is a bit overplayed imho. The color of the steel is the color of the steel and changing the color of any particular sword to that of another is not that simple. Nugui can alter the hue, depth, visable activities, and sheen of a steel, but the process of development begins further back in the polishing process with choices of other stones like uchigomori and tsuyas. So it's nothing like changing Coke to Pepsi in one easy step. Indeed, too much nugui, or the wrong nugui can actually attenuate or "burn" the surface imparting an ugly brown color requiring a return back a couple of steps. Nugui is meant to accentuate and *develop* the color the steel demonstrates already. Can it make a difference? Sure, but in smaller degrees than would be reasonable or possible attempting to turn a shirake looking steel to the blue of another. Then again, nugui alone does not change the hada, boshi, yakiba, deki, keijo, and any number of other things more important to appraisals, and is dependant on the treatment of the surface long before it is applied. Therefore visable characteristics (or lack thereof) aren't totally negui dependant and appraising a sword based on color is somewhat ill-fated anyway.

 

On Suriage;

 

The care and dignity with which a suriage is performed is always a consideration. Just as a shortening a sword shouldn't be performed without skillful application, it should also not look contrived. Some of what make a really beautiful Koto piece is the care and skill that can be seen in how (or who) shortened it with precision. Koto pieces shortened in Keicho period come to mind as those admired for having been attractively done with care and consideration. No sword that has been judiciously and carefully shortened by skillful hands would be reasonably discounted. On the otherhand, one that has been lopped off at odd length, banged on, sanded, and rusted with heaven only knows what, will be a great distraction and disgrace. I guess my point is; it's all about the dignity once the deed is done.

[Brian]

Thanks Ted, Darcy and everyone who has posted on this one. It is turning into a very interesting and educational discussion. Thanks Milt for letting us hijack your thread.

 

Brian

[Bungo]

" Thanks Milt for letting us hijack your thread. "

You are welcome.

 

I posted another message bringing it back to the original " silly " question.

Somehow it doesn't come through. i am sure you ahve something to do with it. So I'll try again............

 

Ted,

What if the " new" nakago is done very nicely, no crude chopped off/artifically ugly patina .

It just shows typical light dark shinshinto color appropriate to it's " shorten " age ?

Would the color of the new nakago throw people off in kantei ?

p.s. I read somewhere some shinshinto made very exact early koto copies.

 

milt

[Ted Tenold]

Milt, sorry I got caught up in the other points and lost track of your original question.

 

As you describe it, I would say not. If the job looks like it was done righteously, then there's little reason to consider it detrimental, *other* than the loss of length to the sword which becomes a conditional consideration toward the loss in the body of the blade and less about an altered nakago. I saw a very nice Rai sword that had been shortened because it was placed in gunto mounts during the war and the blade had an area reaching far past the habaki that was still polished, but not had any yasurimei nor any patina installed. Understandably, it looked very odd but the intent was clear and the fact that the blade was an important sword provided some distraction from it's having been shortened. Should there have been yasuri and patina put on it? Maybe, depends on by who, and for what reason. Regardless, like Darcy demonstrated in another thread here, things should be looked at for not only what they are, but also demonstrate what they once were. The better the skills that apply this kind of alteration, the easier it is to envision former glory. Also, as in conventional kantei, the nakago wouldn't be seen anyway so the appraisal wouldn't include nakago considerations. Though, I assume you are talking about shinsa considerations and not kantei sessions.

 

Each sword is of itself, and therefore each one should be considered for what it *should* display. There's speculation that some shinshinto smiths (or someone thereafter) patinated the nakagos of what then were brand new swords for any variety of reasons from imparting a start to the steels natural protection process, to "there's supposed to be color there". *Shrug* Who knows. I think it gets back to Compton's comments on variations being infinite, and generalizations full of exceptions. I've seen some that were in fine health and condition that looked like the nakagos were in a more advanced stage of patina development than I'd expect had the nagako been left alone. Yet others where the nakago has barely begun to patinate naturally, and yet rarer, one shinshinto ansei era that looked as new as a shinsakuto from last year's batch.

 

But coming full circle, if the sword is nice, and the shortening well executed, and doesn't look as though it was installed with the intention of deception, that's a good place to be. Beyond that, there's a judgment call as to whether the piece should have the patina developed further to perhaps balance out and represent it more accurately, but this is a better question to a pro holding the piece in their hands.

 

And, yes, Shinshinto smiths made lots and lots of copies both with respect to their traditional lineage such as Satsuma smiths making Shizu copies, but also in survival modes after the Hatorei when only the wealthy patronized the best smiths to make copies of famous swords. Gassan smiths made "utsushimono" of Masamune, Sadamune, etc..

[Jean]

Thanks a lot Ted and Darcy for sharing these reflexions, it is always a delight to learn something new from experienced people

 

They are worth a FAQ

[Guido]

neither precludes the other

 

Stephen, still :?

Jacques, you're walking an awfully thin line here. Please try to get your urge to be controversial for controversion's sake under control. And just in case I didn't make myself clear enough: yes, this is a public warning.