What school is this interesting tsuba?

[Surfson]

Hi All of you tosogu specialists.  This tsuba that was on an auction site caught my eye, having never seen anything like it in its entirety.   it is pretty big, around 9X8, and is over 300g, so fairly massive. It was apparently folded from a fairly large plate and it has very subtle carvings of pawlonia flowers on it, in addition to inlay with various irogane.  

 

Any input  as to what school it might be would be appreciated.  The only thought I had was that there is a bit of a tenpo feel to it, but I suspect that is very far off.   

Cheers, Bob

[Henry Wilson]

Myochin? The overall robustness, and the working of the plate makes me think as much.

 

Looks like nice metal and a pleasing motif.

[vajo]

That Tsuba looks indeed very nice. It seems very thin forged at the nakago ana.

 

The only school the gets in my mind is Yamashiro?

[Henry Wilson]

Does a Yamashiro school exist in tsuba? Yamashiro is location in and around Kyoto. Or one of the Gokaden.

[MauroP]

Possibly Aizu-Shōami?

[Surfson]

Both Myochin and Aizu Shoami are interesting.  I searched all the google images for both but could only find elements (for instance the inlay for Aizu shoami and some of the forging work with Myochin) but none close in design and construction.  Still open to suggestions!  

[Ford Hallam]

That's a lovely tsuba, right up my street.

[Surfson]

I agree Ford!  How would you make a tsuba like this?   Would you start with a big pancake and then fold it and pound it from the outside in?   Or do you think that that the mimi was made separately and then somehow welded on at some point?  The carvings of pawlonia are easy to miss, and move into the folded part.  Do you think they were done before or after it was deformed by the forging process?   I am amazed how perfectly symmetrical the borders ended up when all I can think of is how hard it would be to forge and fold it.  I would love to hear your thoughts about the construction process.  Also, if you have any idea of school, please share!  

[TETSUGENDO]

-S-

[Kurikata]

Possibly Aizu-Shōami?

+1

[Surfson]

Thanks for sharing that StevenK.  I really enjoyed the two part one about Katsuhisa's tiger (hope I have the name right).  This certainly brings better appreciation to what goes into the pieces that we are lucky enough to have pass through our hands.  

 

I still hope that Ford replies to the questions I asked, because it seems to me that working with steel/iron is a very different realm, one in which I also know that Ford spends significant time.  

[TETSUGENDO]

Thank You Robert, I posted the video to answer your question about raising the rim, metals aside the technique is similar.  I could comment on your other questions, but will leave it to Ford.  As to the school, I find it a bit of a head scratcher.   Many of the regional Shoami schools have related elements, but none of them explore the organic, and plastic qualities to the degree exhibited  by this tsuba.   Going out on a limb, it feels like a 19th Century Myochin piece to me, they produced a few atypically 'decorated' pieces as the century progressed.   Whatever the outcome, it's an extremely handsome thing.

 

Cheers,

    -S- 

[Henry Wilson]

I called Myochin first and not one like! ????

 

How's about 天法 as an alternative? I found this in the Koza. To some extent, it seems to have the organic and the plastic qualities Tetsugendo identified.

 

[TETSUGENDO]

Henry,

 

This happens to ALL of us, with regularity, that is the nature of this place....free sharing, expounding, and exploring ideas.

 

-S-

[Ed]

Tenbo 天法 is my guess due to the kokuin and the quality of the plate. Don't remember seeing an example with such nice inlay, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. If memory serves me the Tenbo were descendants of the Saotome school.  As the Saotome were also armorer's, Myochin would be a good guess as well for this tsuba.

 

Nice tsuba by the way.

[Henry Wilson]

Henry,

 

This happens to ALL of us, with regularity, that is the nature of this place....free sharing, expounding, and exploring ideas.

 

-S-

Indeed. It is only polite and scholarly sound to acknowledge your sources when you can, wouldn’t you say...

 

Hit the likes and all is forgiven. ????

 

 

 

 

 

PS. Don’t be so defensive, it was a light-hearted belly rub. It’s Sunday after all. We don’t need yet another angry lizard....

[Henry Wilson]

Tenbo 天法 is my guess due to the kokuin and the quality of the plate. Don't remember seeing an example with such nice inlay, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. If memory serves me the Tenbo were descendants of the Saotome school.  As the Saotome were also armorer's, Myochin would be a good guess as well for this tsuba.

 

Nice tsuba by the way.

Nice extrapolations Ed. By the way what is kokuin?

[Ed]

Henry, Kokuin 刻印 are the hot stamps.

[Ford Hallam]

better 'hot stamps'

 

 

 

[Brian]

Ford, you are supposed to lick the BACK of the stamp. :rotfl:

[Surfson]

I think that I am going to become a stamp collector now....

 

Seriously, Tenpo/Tenbo/Tempo/Tembo (what is the proper name - lots of different names seem to be used?) was my first guess, and I'm glad to hear that the same thought occurred to Ed.  Any chance it started life as undecorated Tenpo and was decorated later by a Shoami artist?  it has the feel to me like it was born this way.  

 

Along these lines, there is a NMB thread about Yamashiro Tenpo that shows some pretty twisted iron.... with inlay

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/5285-on-yamashiro-tenpo-tsuba/

[TETSUGENDO]

Robert,  personally I see no meaningful correlation between T/T/T/T and your tsuba, the manner and execution, from forming to decoration, come from very different aesthetic influences.  Ditto on Saotome.  Stamped decoration is common to, more or less, all tsuba production, whether unnoticed or overt.  There are some similarities to Saga, and other late Kaneiye work, but again your pieces plastic qualities are more fully explored and the decoration is much more subtle.   My feelings are that it is later Myochin or a product of one of the later Shoami, I too feel it was " Born this Way"...it is very much an 'art piece'.   The possibility of later decoration is always there, but I feel it is unlikely.  If anyone can present a convincing exemplar of any of the aforementioned possible attributions, I would love to see it, I was unable to find any, and have no past recollections that apply here.

 

Cheers,

    -S- 

[Surfson]

Thanks for that post and view Steven.  I did find this Myochin from Bob Haynes and Elliot Long's site.  The vine and leaf inlay is very reminiscent of the one on this tsuba.  

 

http://www.shibuiswords.com/haynesTsu35.html

 

 

 

[TETSUGENDO]

Thanks Robert, there are some similarities, but yours takes everything to the extreme, as I mentioned, a work of art.  Very much like the difference between a subcompact and a Bentley.

 

Cheers,

    -S- 

[Surfson]

I think it's wonderful too, Steven.   I guess I should admit that I was the winning bidder!   Still waiting to have it in hand.  Cheers, Bob

[Henry Wilson]

Robert, personally I see no meaningful correlation between T/T/T/T and your tsuba, the manner and execution, from forming to decoration, come from very different aesthetic influences. Ditto on Saotome. Stamped decoration is common to, more or less, all tsuba production, whether unnoticed or overt. There are some similarities to Saga, and other late Kaneiye work, but again your pieces plastic qualities are more fully explored and the decoration is much more subtle. My feelings are that it is later Myochin or a product of one of the later Shoami, I too feel it was " Born this Way"...it is very much an 'art piece'. The possibility of later decoration is always there, but I feel it is unlikely. If anyone can present a convincing exemplar of any of the aforementioned possible attributions, I would love to see it, I was unable to find any, and have no past recollections that apply here.

tsuba

Cheers,

-S-

 

-S- I am sorry to respectfully say that there is a lot in your post that I don’t agree with.

 

But that’s not why I am here. I am here because you ask for a convincing exemplar regarding the debate. I think the above posts present a convincing chain of logical reasoning. To summarise:

 

1. The Koza signed Tempo tsuba I listed seems to visually share characteristics with the tsuba in question. (Be a sport and hit “like”. It’s a good find).

2. Ed saliently linked Myochin with Tempo (Ditto for 1).

3. Robert has presented a possible Myochin with similar surface design, with more signed examples in the link he provides.

 

You seem to agree with me that the tsuba is Myochin (You “free-shared” my initial Myochin call, remember????), but are trying to push it in another way, based on your feelings. I don’t see your point and can only conclude that you are blindly pushing your point of view to establish alpha-dominance over the entire thread.

[Surfson]

What I have gathered from these discussions so far, and trying to keep it on track and avoid a dust up:

 

1.  The tsuba doesn't seem to be a slam dunk for any particular school.  This may be part of the problem, as none of the examples that any of us have found have all of the elements of this piece.

2.  Chris mentioned Yamashiro, which baffled me at first until I found that earlier NMB discussion about Yamashiro Tenpo.  This certainly seems to be a possibility, at least from the perspective of shape and form more so than inlay.

3.  Mauro mentioned Aizu Shoami, and Bruno seconded that; indeed there are many styles of inlay that this tsuba has and are associated with Aizu Shoami.

4.  Henry mentioned Myochin, and Steven and I agree that there are strong elements of Myochin.  To me, the twisted iron part of the tsuba recalls the example Henry listed.  After Henry mentioned this, I did some more googling.  The example I found on the Haynes site has the inlay but not the distorted shape.

5.  Ford appears to like it a lot, so much so that it inspired him to post images of beautiful naked women.  Whether admitting it or not, the rest of us enjoyed the images, perhaps a little more than the bad pun about "hot stamps"!

6.  Ed seconded (or thirded) the Tenpo call, based on kokuin.  However, we still haven't discussed whether this tsuba actually has kokuin.   Are the pawlonia flowers carvings or stamps?  If they are stamps, I would imagine that they would have to have been done before the thing was folded up, in which case they would probably be distorted.  My guess is that they were carved, rather than stamped, after the tsuba was formed, but am open to other suggestions.  Will there be any way to tell once I have it in hand?  It seems that the point as to whether these flowers are stamps or are carved is an important one in the kantei, am I right?

7.  Steven reiterated both Myochin and Shoami as leading hypotheses.  To my mind, these two, along with Tenpo, are the three leading guesses.

 

Have I left anything out?  Cheers, Bob

[TETSUGENDO]

Henry,

 

Your post is one of the strangest I have ever read, why you would choose to post it, is beyond me....perhaps compulsion is the answer.

Respectfully:  I do not respond to commands, when I see some equitable distribution of future 'likes' on your part, I may throw some your way, if you'll check you will see I gave you many in the past, but under the circumstances I will decline.  They apparently hold some exaggerated meaning for you.  My post has nothing to do with feelings, though I strongly suspect yours does.  I posted my opinions, sorry they don't align with yours, but I welcome and defend everyones right to share them, including yours. You don't have to see the point of my opinions, nor I yours....unless I'm missing something.   I didn't realize MNB, was a contest, thank you for enlightening me. I'll skip returning the bazaar psychobabble even though it's tempting.  Pity, another thread, needlessly interrupted by petty grievances, this time could have been put to much better use.

[Henry Wilson]

Concerning Roberts point 6, do Tempo tsuba strictly have to have “hot-stamps”? The carvings on the tsuba seem to try to recreate the look and feel of hot-stamps even thought they might not have been stamped

 

I personally would say that the tsuba in question has too much individuality and character to call it Shoami.

 

 

 

 

StevenK, thank you for your latest post. I think you just proved my point.

 

The “likes” thing is a joke.

 

My post has nothing to do with feelings

You used “feel” three times in six consecutive sentences...

 

. My feelings are that it is later Myochin or a product of one of the later Shoami, I too feel it was " Born this Way"...it is very much an 'art piece'. The possibility of later decoration is always there, but I feel it is unlikely.

 

Just saying like.

 

I could go on but nuff said least the angry lizard rises again ????

 

No hard feelings.

[Surfson]

 

 

The carvings on the tsuba seem to try to recreate the look and feel of hot-stamps even thought they might have been stamped

This is an interesting hypothesis worth considering, Henry.  They certainly are faint (in fact, easy to overlook), when they need not necessarily be, and that supports your idea.  However, if true, it then begs the question: if the "stamps" are some kind of utsushi, what other features of the piece might also be a tribute?  

 

Anyway, i have enjoyed this discussion and learned a bit about the schools we have discussed, and maybe even the maker of the tsuba.  Thanks to all.  Cheers, Bob