Juyo swords found in Shin Gunto Koshirae

[PNSSHOGUN]

Simple question, has anyone owned or come across a sword that has papered to Juyo or higher that were in Shin Gunto mounts? Examples would be appreciated if possible, especially the Gunto mounts.

[Ray Singer]

My understanding is that the Etchu Norishige that Cary Condell found, and which later papered as Juyo specifically to Norishige, was found in gunto koshirae. It is the Norishige that was offered on his website Ikkyudo.com.

[Ray Singer]

That same sword on Darcy's website. I do not recall details of the original gunto koshirae.

 

https://yuhindo.com/norishige/

[vajo]

John i think you thought on Nick Koyama who says that not high valuable swords came to war. I didn't follow Nicks thoughts further.

My thinking is, when a Officer is going in a war and gives the most valuable thing for his country his life. Why he should honor this with an invaluable third class sword? No, i think he will choose the best blade and if he fall the blade will fall with him.

[Mark]

i had a sword pass Juyo to Yamato Shizu that was in gunto mounts, a friend has a signed Ichimonji that was in Gunto mounts.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Any pictures? Were the mounts of a particularly high quality or other unique features?

[Dave R]

John i think you thought on Nick Koyama who says that not high valuable swords came to war. I didn't follow Nicks thoughts further.

My thinking is, when a Officer is going in a war and gives the most valuable thing for his country his life. Why he should honor this with an invaluable third class sword? No, i think he will choose the best blade and if he fall the blade will fall with him.

 

 Nick Komiya is very good on documentation, and certainly to be respected and listened to. And he says (writes) himself, that he is not a sword guy....

[PNSSHOGUN]

No thoughts in particular on any other theories, just wondered if there were any out there and what sort of mounts they were in. You would expect some high grade swords in high ranked officers swords, especially Generals or wealthy families, which is why I was hoping to see the mounts of the Juyo swords.

[sbf]

I’m sure many officers, especially higher ranking ones had more than one sword. Years ago I was researching a sword that was for sale on ebay that very possibly belonged to General Kuribayashi. The sword was a Gassan made in the 1930’s in beautiful gunto mounts with a general’s tassel. I discovered a reference where his wife said after he left to take command at Iwo Jima, she discovered he had taken his new sword with him instead of his old family sword. This made her realize he didn’t expect to return.

 

Steve

[BIG]

Chris, sure some "good" swords went to war. But a man with a family heirloom and a family left will save this heirloom. Your officer reminds me to Tolkiens Stewart of Gondor.

 

Best

[Surfson]

There is a great thread about a Munetada that was captured and presumably carried in the war (though still in samurai mounts).  

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/27429-captured-wwii-sword/

 

Also, my Norishige was partially remounted (military tsuka but original tsuba) and carried during the war.  

 

I have, and have had, other great swords that were carried in the war in military mounts.  

 

it would be interesting to know the precise number, but I have always felt that the breakdown of modern and family blades was about 95% modern and 5% family (samurai) blades.  Among the family blades, there were plenty of great swords that were sent into the war.  Big names in shinshinto, shinto and koto.  I can think of dozens of examples.  Whether they are of juyo quality or achieved juyo status is hard to assess and as we all know, the process of getting that rank is highly situational and perhaps even political.

[lonely panet]

one of clive sinclaires books notes a Kotetsu being surrendered in gunto mounts in 1945

[Ed]

I have an Ichmonji that was found at a gun show(by a friend), and if memory serves me, it was in Gunto mounts.

[Surfson]

Ed, I am jealous that you ended up with it!   Is it signed?  

[Tom Darling]

Hamfish,

 

Is possible to post Clive Sinclaires notes on the Kotetsu, and was there a family mon noted.  Thank you.

 

 

Tom D.

[paulb]

I am not sure but perhaps the blade Clive was refferring to was the Kotetsu sold in the Francis Festing collection. The catalogue description states:

" Presented by Lieutenant-General Moritake Tanabe Commander Japanese 25th Army to Major General R.C.O Headly Allied Land Forces Sumatra May 1946."

 

I would guess it reasonable to assume this was in Gunto mounts. I dont know what happend to the sword after the auction but think it likely returned to  Japan (as did the Kiyomaro from the same sale) And if submitted for papers would have achieved Juyo.

[lonely panet]

off the top of my head, i read this some 15 years ago from Samurai: The Weapons and Spirit of the Japanese Warrior

it was one of points of interest in the book i remember. the full details pass me by but its a book that really sticks in my mind.

 but it had a inlayed cutting test aswell

[paulb]

The Festing one certainly had a cutting test, signed Yamano kanjuro Hisahide and dated 1668

 

[lonely panet]

That's the one

[Surfson]

Would't you love to find that in gunto mounts on the table in a gun show?!!! 

[Tom Darling]

I disagree, if the Kotetsu katana noted by Clive would not be the same as sold in Sotheby's catalogue of Sir Francis Festing, as it is gimei. The Kiyomaro was perfect and brought 265,,500 lbs and Kotetsu sold for 78,000 pounds.  Assuming the one Clive noted is not gimei.  Peace.

 

 

Tom D.

[paulb]

Sorry Tom I am not sure I understand what you are saying. Was the one noted by Clive gimei? or do you believe the Sotheby's one was? at 78k I really hope it wasn't

Sorry if I am being dense, I am suffering a little from over excitement from the Cricket world cup and the closest match I have ever seen:-)

[Tom Darling]

Sotheby's Kotetsu is gimei, the sayagaki is a a dubious compliment.  Peace.

 

 

Tom D.

[paulb]

Hi Tom

From your emphatic comment You appear to have some background regarding the Sotheby's sword can you share this?

I am not disagreeing with you but am curious as to why you believe this to be the case.

Thanks

Paul

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Field Marshal Festings collection was sold in 1993 and it was reviewed at the time by the late Han Bin Siong . He expressed no doubts as to the authenticity of the Kotetsu although he wasn't backward in pronouncing a lot of the other big name pieces to be wrong .. I think Mr Han was just about the leading western sword scholar of his era so if he thought it was right then I am pretty sure it would have been.

Ian Brooks

[Ray Singer]

Ian beat me to expressing the same sentiment. I have been wanting to dig out the article in the JSSUS where Han Bin Siong wrote about that sword, but with work and travel have not had the time to do so. I believe he felt it to be an authentic Kotetsu.

[Ian B3HR2UH]

In Answer to your original query John I have only handled one sword that came in military mounts and subsequently went Juyo . I believe that this is possibly the only sword found in Australia that has attained a Juyo rating . The blade came in a shingunto mount of good quality  ( no mon though ) . What was unusual was that the blade was still in its old lacquered saya with a leather cover over it ie. it didn't have a metal saya.

Ian Brooks

[PNSSHOGUN]

Thank you Ian, that is most interesting, do you recall if it had a tassel? It does seem quite extraordinary that few swords have gone to Juyo but we certainly don't have the same large collector base or authorities like other countries,

[Ian B3HR2UH]

No Tassel that I can recall John . If you get down to Victoria we can arrange an inspection. Ian

[Death-Ace]

I’m sure many officers, especially higher ranking ones had more than one sword. Years ago I was researching a sword that was for sale on ebay that very possibly belonged to General Kuribayashi. The sword was a Gassan made in the 1930’s in beautiful gunto mounts with a general’s tassel. I discovered a reference where his wife said after he left to take command at Iwo Jima, she discovered he had taken his new sword with him instead of his old family sword. This made her realize he didn’t expect to return.

 

Steve

Steve,

 

I remember that auction! Wasn't he nihonto777 or the such? A lot of high quality blades, he sold. Unless it was a private seller, I can't recall. All I remember is a near mint Gassan Sadakatsu with high quality fittings with a general frade tassel.

 

The story was that the Marine who found it was taken by a Japanese POW to the graves of two high ranking officers and this blade was on top. Stayed with the family until 2005(?) when it was sold on eBay. Right before Letters of Iwo Jima came out if I remember, but sounds supiciously like the end of the movie, so coulda been after. I'm pretty sure it was right beforehand. Last I recall, it sold for 20k.