What exactly does 保留 Horyu mean in Shinsa?

[Bugyotsuji]

Recently a Koto Nio wakizashi came back from Shinsa, where I had entered it for Hozon/Tokubetsu Hozon. My sword elders at the local NBTHK meeting had encouraged me to go straight for Tokuhon.

 

Result. (The good news and the bad news.)

 

The bad news is that it did not gain any status.

 

The good news. Because it was judged 保留 Horyu, though, I was not charged a single ￥en for the pleasure of leaving it with them for six months. They cannot take money for failing to come to a conclusion?

 

So what does Horyu actually mean within the confines of the NBTHK conference room? In the dictionary is says 'put on hold', 'suspended' 'deferred to the next meeting' etc., so we can guess that they were unable to make up their mind one way or the other. I am thinking that this is better than 'Gimei', but it does rather leave a poor soul hanging in limbo.

 

Moral. Despite the advice to only send it in its fairly newish shirasaya, I should maybe have included the good old koshirae as there was only one mekugi ana, and everything lined up happily, one attesting to the other(?). 

 

Further thoughts. Perhaps Horyu keeps a spark alive. This blade is good enough to get a foot in the door, and although they could not conclude that it was right, they did not say it was wrong either... 

[Rivkin]

Well, I think those tend to come up predominantly for signed pieces, where it indicates there are some issues with the signature, but not enough to discard it as gimei.

A koto piece where the signature is unlike anything recorded but sort of matches the work can get this judgement.

 

One option - NTHK NPO will be more clear cut on this issue. I sort of see their judgement sheets are less detailed in Japan compared to the US shinsa, but they still can simply write down a comment like saying "there a chance this portion of the signature is not original" or "the work is Nio, the signature is not".

 

The bad thing about getting this judgement with NBTHK is that it is unlikely to be overturned if you resubmit in a year, despite the judgement sort of inviting this course of action. One might be better off with yet another "Uda" that can easily transform into something more tangible on a slightly more careful examination.

 

All opinions are personal and likely erroneous.

Kirill R.

[Nobody]

Have you read the NBTHK Sinsa Standards?

 

quote===========

6) Blades are put to "reservation" (horyu) if a decision could not easily be made on the authenticity of the mei. This also applies to mumei blades in which an attribution is difficult to make.

=====================================end

[Bugyotsuji]

Thanks Kirill!

 

And no, Nobody San, I had not read that. Thank you once more. The Mei is listed, but perhaps there are no recorded examples of his ‘writing’ to compare it with.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Interesting, do you have pictures of the sword in question by any chance?

[Brian]

Since I think they often err on the side of caution, I read horyu as far better than gimei, and in my own mind would be close to shoshin. Just my mind though. Maybe the smith had an injury or some variation in his signing that week...or they don't have enough reference mei to compare?
Either way, sounds like a good tanto.

[Bugyotsuji]

Hmmmm.... yes, thanks for the further thoughts guys. I guess if I wanted to really dig deeper I would phone and ask for their considerations, if they had any besides the written disclaimer quoted by Nobody San above.

Not actually attempted to take any shots of the wakizashi yet, John.

[Bugyotsuji]

PS An email in Japanese arrived earlier giving me hope. "Horyu means 'we do not really know', so get some more reference materials together, wait a while, and then resubmit, and there is an even likelihood that it will go through..." was the advice.

 

(Although I do take your point Kirill.)

[Guido]

Horyū is like the Mueller report on obstruction of justice.

[Hoshi]

Remember that Japanese culture is extremely polite. 

 

Horyu is a gentle way to say it won't pass because something doesn't match. Translated into american English, I fear it means something much more dire than 'try again next session'. It's not going to change if you resubmit I'm afraid unless it's an extremely borderline case and some new scholarly data comes up. 

 

If you remove the signature it will come back as something else if the signature didn't match the deki. In case the signature itself is deemed bad, it may come back as a mumei piece of that same smith. Tanobe sensei would be the person to tell you more about it and if it's the later case you need to be very mindful before engaging in signature removal. 

[Bugyotsuji]

Chris quote: 

"If you remove the signature it will come back as something else."

 

What. like Mumei?   

 

No you are quite right. "Give up hope all who enter here!"  

[Guido]

Horyu is a gentle way to say it won't pass because something doesn't match. Translated into american English, I fear it means something much more dire than 'try again next session'. It's not going to change if you resubmit I'm afraid unless it's an extremely borderline case and some new scholarly data comes up.

That sums it up perfectly.

[Bugyotsuji]

I have a cunning plan! 

[Alex A]

Heres one Tsuruta San disagrees with. https://www.aoijapan.com/katana-hizen-kuni-yamato-daijyo-fujiwara-kanehiro-first-generation/

 

With cheaper swords, wouldn't bother me.

[TETSUGENDO]

Chris quote: 

"If you remove the signature it will come back as something else."

 

What. like Mumei?   

 

No you are quite right. "Give up hope all who enter here!"  

 

Sounds like a cheerful letter from Gustave Doré!  

 

-S-

p.s.- What is this "cunning plan"?

[Bugyotsuji]

Do you know Baldrick?

 

https://www.google.co.jp/search?q=baldrick+i+have+a+cunning+plan&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=ja-jp&client=safari#imgrc=Ck5fPE8o-9DgiM:

 

Perhaps.... “Abandon every hope, ye who enter here!” Divine Comedy. Dante.

[TETSUGENDO]

Very droll, at this point a trip to hell is a bit extreme, is it not.  A stay in purgatory perhaps..... Oops forgot, your already there!  Keep laughing, the alternative puts people I'll at ease.

 

Never surrender hope,

                 

                  -S-

[Bugyotsuji]

Thanks Steve, I appreciate it! 

 

I think I have realized what Horyu means. 

 

1. Good luck with that, matey.

2. We look forward to banging our heads against the wall once more, next time you have the temerity to send it in.

3. Next time, read the small print first.

4. Never forget that Japan is a perfect square in every respect, except there is one tiny gap in the wall in the far corner that most people are in too much of a hurry to notice.

 

PS When I had my back turned, the very cunning plan just went out the window.

[Vermithrax16]

Hey Piers,

I had a tsuba I had been waiting a while on come back Horyu and it was just as annoying a feeling. Agree with your above points, it's an "oh well" situation.

[Alex A]

If I see a blade and the work is spot on, but the mei off, the first thing I think of is Dai-mei. (signed by family or students)

 

That opens lots of doors to variations in mei, and as Brian mentioned above, there could be another reason, in fact many reasons.

 

Sometimes ive seen papered blades where the mei as struck me as gimei and was actually going to start a thread about it, so it works both ways.

 

The fact that NBTHK cant give a definite answer is not necessarily a bad thing (in my book), kind of sums up the hobby, which is not an exact science.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Recent post by Darcy might be of some use:

 

https://blog.yuhindo.com/to-mei-ga-aru/

[Rivkin]

Would this be a shinto sword with a major signature the feeling could have been that it has slight (maybe really slight) discrepancies with what is considered canonical and thus the judgement is omitted, as it often is. Horyu for koto works is a tad harsher and without seeing the blade and signature it is hard to say anything concrete.

 

Regarding what shinsa really means when expressing some doubt but papering... I have a rule not to comment on swords being offered by dealers, first and foremost since I occasionally sell swords myself and thus cannot be a disinterested party. So I would appreciate not pointing the sword in question directly, but as a matter of context - there is a high paper sword with a "unique signature" for which sayagaki was in the past asked from all of major three issuers (for the obvious purpose of dispelling the stated doubt), but all of them responded that the signature was most likely placed after the smith's lifetime.

 

All opinions expressed are very personal and very likely erroneous. 

 

Kirill R.

[Bugyotsuji]

Thanks John for the link to Darcy's thoughts. A good read.

 

Kirill, I think your very first comment above was spot on. The koto wakizashi itself which recently drew the 'Horyu' is not really part of the question, and has not been offered for sale anywhere, (certainly not since I acquired it). The registration paperwork notes a 訂正 correction in H.15 (2003), which may have been the reading of one of the Kanji in the Mei.(?)

My aim was merely to explore the ramifications of the word 'Horyu' when used by NBTHK in daily practice. 

[Rivkin]

Thank you, Piers - no my comment on the sword for sale was purely related to a different, blog-related question - the one regarding the impression that something papered with special qualifications regarding the signature still means NBTHK absolutely affirmed the signature as being original to the sword.

There is an example of such Juyo sword for which when the issue was asked to be further explained in sayagaki the response by leading NBTHK judges was consistent and firm that they believe it is a substantially later signature, not original to the sword.

 

If the sword is old enough, and the signature is quite old by itself, it sometimes can be papered "as is" with an appropriate statement to this fact.

 

Very personally and possibly erroneously, I see some lack of caution in re-interpreting such paper as an affirmation of signature's authenticity with some minor doubts.

 

Kirill R.