Type 95 Black Saya

[BANGBANGSAN]

@Shamsy

Steve

Found a red bean paint Type 30 scabbard.

 

[Shamsy]

That's not one you see every day, Trystan! LeBar actually has a few unusually painted scabbard that he lists as souvenir pieces. I'm thinking that the same thing likely applies to Type 95s and some of the less common colours or fancier combinations. 

[BANGBANGSAN]

Not sure if that scabbard was painted white or wrapped with the white cloth

 

[Shamsy]

To me, it looks like white cloth like the handle. You can see the edges of cloth in the lower left side of the saya against the dark boot.

 

[Kiipu]

Ditto what Shamsy said.  Note the name of the photographic studio and date in the lower left corner?

[mecox]

Interesting pistol holster for man on right (piece of string)...I guess for the photo.  I dont know guns...is that an early Mauser?

[Kiipu]

Yes, C96 to be exact and commonly called the "broomhandle" by collectors.  The Japanese acquired so many from the Chinese that they adopted it as the ｢モ｣式大型拳銃 in 1939!  Good to see Mal branching out into the heavy artillery!

Mauser C96

[MarcoUdin]

As Kiipu said, apparently captured a lot from the Chinese when they invaded Manchuria (I believe in 1931?). They liked them so much the ended up also acquiring some more later on, mostly for civil defense forces or so I've read.

 

Do just want to make clear this is a Mauser C96 copy made in China and has nothing to do with Germany.

[Bruce Pennington]

5 hours ago, Kiipu said:

Note the name of the photographic studio and date in the lower left corner?

Is it '1911' ?

[PNSSHOGUN]

The Chinese did buy Mauser C96's from Germany at various stages, along with indigenous production (of varying quality).

[Brian]

I imported a bunch of captured and warehoused WW2 weapons from China many years ago. There were both German and Chinese C96's of various variations.
Yes, China had German ones, including full auto Schnellfeuers, Astra 702 and 703's etc etc. But the Chinese variations were many, and some bizarre ones. I can't say if that one is German or Chinese. Late period small ring..maybe German.
 

[Kiipu]

11 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Is it '1911' ?

 

The top row is PHOTO and the second row appears to be a sequence of numbers.  I think the photograph is probably coming from an archive, news agency, or collection.  Scrap the studio and date comment above.  This just goes to show you what happens when I think drink too much!

[BANGBANGSAN]

One more white cloth wrapped scabbard.

  

[Bruce Pennington]

Wonder what that rolled up cord is hanging from under his finger?  Not a rank tassel.

[Shamsy]

Copied from another thread to prevent myself from having to repeat this later

 

While I have been spurred to action. I've previously mentioned I'm rather dubious about calling a number of the less common colours a 'camouflage'. Too often casual statements without any basis at all in documentation become 'fact' when read online. Especially when there is no disclaimer that it is an opinion or guess, or the guess is stated as a fact. While I was looking for examples of plexiglass modifications in LaBar's excellent book on Japanese bayonets (for a different thread and topic), I found the souvenirs thread. Wouldn't you know, some of the examples have the same colours of paint and unusual mixes (like black with gold highlights) we have seen on 95s.

 

Worth popping in here as an example at least of why we might find some fancifully painted 95s with period appropriate patina.

 

On a separate note. Looking through the whole book, there are two observations I'd like to add. There seem to be a fair number of black painted bayonet scabbards. Now, I've been and remain dubious about a good majority of black 95 saya. The pertinent questions are:

Factory or field painted?

Originally painted black or refurbished later?

Why is there is such a variation in quality of finish (sometimes black is over metal and no traces of other paint, but regularly there are traces of a previous colour or sometimes at worst, the original paint seems to have black slapped straight over the top)

There are a number of modern repaints to black to muddle this further

There is no official documentation at all about the use of black or any particular reason to use it ('supply' doesn't cut it. As Nick stated, the army had a ready supply of 'red bean' paint which was used on equipment)

 

At this point I'd like to state that I tentatively support the idea that A LIMITED NUMBER of black saya may be period and a further limited number of these appear to possibly original, with no traces of a previous paint under the black.

 

However, just like EVERYONE else with an opinion on these, there is no primary evidence nor reasoning explaining why black may have been used. That is something where we are still looking for answers. All we have are a mixed bag of examples, not very conducive to a neat explanation. 

 

[BANGBANGSAN]

Another "white" scabbard. This time is Type 19 Kyu Gunto.

 

[Shamsy]

White or nickel? Is it possible to tell from the photo? I'm absolutely not doubting the existence of white saya (now faded to off cream) and the plausibly of this actually being used in a snow environment. But black and white photographs need to be carefully considered.

[dwmc]

10 hours ago, Shamsy said:

White or nickel? Is it possible to tell from the photo? I'm absolutely not doubting the existence of white saya (now faded to off cream) and the plausibly of this actually being used in a snow environment. But black and white photographs need to be carefully considered.

 

Trystan's photo could very well be an example of a white saya. However, below is a photo of my father (on left) with one the swords he brought home. It shows, as Steve suggested, how deceptive the old black and white pictures can be, my father's sword was definitely not painted black, and his buddies not white.

 

Dave M.

 

[Kiipu]

11 hours ago, Shamsy said:

But black and white photographs need to be carefully considered.

 

Nick just started a thread on the 12th about this subject matter.  A little technical but worthy of a look.

The “B&W in Color” Fallacy

[Kiipu]

Another oldie but goodie from 2017 about Type 95 Military Swords dressed in white.  Hope Shamsy does not mind a link about white in a thread about black!

Winter Is Coming...

[Bruce Pennington]

An interesting thread on Wehrmacht-awards - Black-painted Combat Helmets.  Seems they believe them to be period painted as well, some painted over the factory paint.  One painted over a white original paint!

 

So now we have helmets, rifles, and swords painted black. 

[Bruce Pennington]

And grenades:

[Bruce Pennington]

Another posted by Flintlock on this Warrelics thread: Help Needed Please

[Shamsy]

On 10/30/2022 at 12:41 AM, Bruce Pennington said:

Another posted by Flintlock on this Warrelics thread: Help Needed Please

Patina on the hilt is so far off from the saya, definitely a repaint of black, much later than the hilt. Strongly expect there would be the standard paint remaining somewhere on the saya if carefully examined. I wonder if the allies repainted captured equipment to prevent decay until they decided what to do with it. Not a bad theory and as solid as anything else.

[Bruce Pennington]

@Stegel @Shamsy

A wooden handled version:

[Stegel]

Here's a Nagoya sword from a UK dealers site found (current listing so won't post the link)

The black scabbard appears to be  a period paint job, showing nice Patina and old wear from usage IMO.

Closer inspection would help reveal if it is original or a 'period' repaint.

 

[paul griff]

Hello,

         Just picked this one up locally…..Nice dark patina to the Saya which I believe to be period….Sword had those specks of early oil based paint splashed on it when it had been mounted on a living room wall, blade was covered with a really nasty sticky grease….Sword has all the pointers of being well used i.e razor sharp with sharpening marks and plenty nicks and scars towards the kissaki and interesting repair to kuchi-gane..

Regards,

Paul..

[Bruce Pennington]

An interesting Type 32, painted black, even the blade, but worn heavily, by @Bridges HERE,

[John C]

A late model black saya? Note the handle, fuchi, etc. are also black.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/134133558279?hash=item1f3afbac07%3Ag%3Au3gAAOSwiE9jETzo&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoPTuyp%2FzLQOEgmqC8SvcYcvKWGwlVN%2Ftw5S%2FyrHfnpZu8K6Ht9A6XcpjzlypzYLxjCvwKbsEzGj3a5eZIwjofbn6hKDAcCx%2B%2Bsue6bAGaH8SQIcxoBqyH8p6dWmS4PVxgAZ5qIa2YbzgTPr2yShEznv%2BaVsRAaKi85puDYDxITrwgNxylyYX3Lrgfrgqm9JOLLLOkBubHwtULszMQ2rpQwU%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR4bxsJShYQ&LH_ItemCondition=4|10

 

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

Interesting piece.  The double release buttons usually carry a star-stamped RJT blade.  Here's the mei.  Admittedly, the habaki is still in place, but I think we would still the a star if it were there: