help with Cutting test inscription (i think)

[Mark]

Group,

 

I try to help others when i can, so i hope someone can offer me some assistance. I have a wakizashi with a silver inlayed inscription. I think it is a cutting test and the testers name but i am not very experienced with these inscriptions. So everyone knows the situation: I own the sword, it will probably be for sale in the future but i do not plan to put it on eBay, i have a friend i trade with who expressed an interest.

 

Thanks!

[sencho]

Looks like....

 

 

???

TSU

DO - (body)

SAI DAN - (Slicing)

 

MORI - (name?)

SHO SUKE - (name?)

NAO TOSHI - (name?)

KAO - (signature)

 

 

not sure of first kanji..... actually not sure I have got any of it right, as my kanji reading is somewhat dubious, should wait until Moriyama san or Morita san is up and about.

 

Regards!

[Grey Doffin]

Does anyone know the significance of the inlay being silver, rather than the usual gold?

Grey

[Guest reinhard]

The inscription reads:

 

"futatsu do saidan" ("tested on two trunks")

 

The family-name (Mori) can't be found among the more famous and well-documented names of sword testers. Maybe someone else comes up with more profound infos. All in all, this inscription looks like a later addition for commercial reasons to me.

 

reinhard

[Nobody]

貮ツ胴截断 (Futatsu Do Setsudan) – cut two trunks

森å°åŠ©å°šåˆ© + kao (Mori Kosuke Naotoshi) – tester’s name (unsure about the reading?)

[sencho]

Moriyama san

 

Just a language inquiry here, excuse me for this....

 

　截断　 　I read "saidan" - (cut/slice)

 

I would write "setsudan" (cut/slice) like this 　切断　

 

Questions:

 

Can you read the (older) kanji that I read "sai" as "setsu"?

 

Is the Kanji 　è£æ–­ã€€ã€€"saidan" the modern version of the kanji?

 

Yoroshikuonegaishimasu!

N.

[Mark]

Thanks to everyone for their help. I hope this post at least allows some educational discussion. Grey asked an interesting question about the gold vs. silver -- i would have thought that if this was a later addition to up the value someone would have used gold instead of silver. there is hardly any gold weight so the cost of the materials should not have made that much difference. Any thoughts about that?

[Bugyotsuji]

Moriyama san

 

Just a language inquiry here, excuse me for this....

 

　截断　 　I read "saidan" - (cut/slice)

 

I would write "setsudan" (cut/slice) like this 　切断　

 

Questions:

 

Can you read the (older) kanji that I read "sai" as "setsu"?

 

Is the Kanji 　è£æ–­ã€€ã€€"saidan" the modern version of the kanji?

 

Yoroshikuonegaishimasu!

N.

 

Just had a quick look throught the dictionaries and it says that Saidan, using the same characters, is the 慣用 "Kanyou" Yomi for Setsudan.

[Nobody]

Moriyama san

 

Just a language inquiry here, excuse me for this....

 

　截断　 　I read "saidan" - (cut/slice)

 

I would write "setsudan" (cut/slice) like this 　切断　

 

Questions:

 

Can you read the (older) kanji that I read "sai" as "setsu"?

 

Is the Kanji 　è£æ–­ã€€ã€€"saidan" the modern version of the kanji?

 

Yoroshikuonegaishimasu!

N.

 

Just had a quick look throught the dictionaries and it says that Saidan, using the same characters, is the 慣用 "Kanyou" Yomi for Setsudan.

Very roughly speaking;

 

Setsudan (切断 or 截断) – cut off with blades

However, 截断 also reads Saidan as a customary reading.

 

Saidan (è£æ–­) – cut out with scissors

 

 

切, 截, and è£ are different kanji.

[sencho]

Moriyama san,

 

Thank you for the clarification and education....

 

regards

[Ford Hallam]

with reference to Reinhard's comment regarding the actual silver inlay;

 

my feeling is also that this is a later addition ( ie, somewhat dubious ) done to enhance the commercial value of the blade. The kanji themselves look a bit poorly written and the inlay is not particularly clever.

 

regards,

 

Ford

[IanB]

Mark, Ah, you are the one who beat me on that one. I'm pleased it went to a good home. I was just as intrigued by the silver kamon inlaid into the saya. I suspect you have bought a nice sword there.

Ford - a tameshi inscription has by definition to be later. It may have been to enhance the value, but again that is true of all tameshi inscriptions. I feel that the addition of the kao suggests it is probably perfectly authentic. I wonder if the tester used silver or gold inlay in a similar way to the Honami use of gold or lacquer for their appraisals - to indicate two different circumstances. I cannot see why they might need to do that since the result of the test forms part of the inscription.

 

Ian Bottomley

[Mark]

Ian,

 

Thanks for the thoughts. The blade is certainly suriage, possibly O-suriage, I have seen a few gold test inscriptions, but only one or two in silver. Do you think it may be done in silver as the blade was shortened already, or did you mean that the silver may be because the test was done under different circumstances, or something else?

[Guido]

I'm with Reinhard and Ford on this one - the Ginzogan is poorly done / awkwardly written, and since I did some extensive research into sword testers in the past, I'm pretty sure that this is an "unrecorded" tester - there's not a single one by the name of "Mori". The addition of a (equally poorly done) Kao doesn't, IMO, prove anything. Besides, all Saidan-Mei I've ever seen were either simply inscribed like a Mei, or done Kinzogan.

 

So far we have an unknown tester, a unique silver inlay, and unsophisticated writing style: chances are slim that the Saidan-Mei is authentic.

[Mark]

I am not a good judge of writing style, so that is a good point. It just seems to me that if i wanted to put a fake test on a blade i would do it like all the others (gold inlay - and pick a name of a tester who may be uncommon but at least recorded) instead of making it so atypical. At least this is an interesting and educational discussion.

[Grey Doffin]

All good points; an interesting discussion. I have to side with Mark on this one. If I were going to add a fake cut test to a blade to up its value, no way I'm going to do something totally out of the norm. I'm going to do it in gold and use a known name.

Grey

[John A Stuart]

Hi All, I think there was a cottage industry that added test cut inscriptions onto swords of lower standards to inflate their importance, as well, maybe to act as a charm, where the attestation can influence actuality. Perhaps, even, the inscriptions were added much later to facilitate monetary gain as the prohibition of swords occured. I have a sword with kinzogan test cut that shows a sword test by an unknown swordsman that is spurious to say the least although well inlaid in this case. John