47 Ronin Swords List-

[Cameron]

was wondering what insights people draw from this limited information?

 

 

OISHI KURANOSUKE YOSHIKATSU, age 45
katana mei: Norinaga (1,2), length 2 shaku 8 sun
wakizashi mei: Norinaga (1,2), length 2 shaku
te yari

YOSHIDA CHUZAEMON KANESUKE, age 64
katana attribution: Shimada (1,x), length 2 shaku 2 sun
wakizashi mei: Hiromitsu (3,1), length 1 shaku 1 sun
naga yari (long yari)

HARA SOEMON MOTOTOKI, age 56
katana mei: Hirohuni (3,1), length 2 shaku 9 sun
wakizashi mei: Kunisuke (1,2), length 2 shaku
te yari

KATAOKA GENGOEMON TAKAFUSA, age 37
katana mei: Kunimitsu (2,1), length 2 shaku 7 sun
wakizashi mei: Kunishige (1,2), length unknown
te yari

MASE KYUDAIU MASAAKI, age 63
katana mei: Michitaka (1,2), length 2 shaku 1 sun
wakizashi mei: Yoshitsuna (1,2), length 2 shaku
bow and arrow

ONODERA JYUNAI HIDEKAZU, age 61
katana mei: Michinaga (1,2), length 2 shaku 9 sun
wakizashi mei: Kunisuke (2,2), length 1 shaku 9 sun
te yari

HAZAMA KIHEI MITSUNOBU, age 65
katana mei: mumei (unsigned), lenght 2 shaku 9 sun
wakizashi mei: Teruhiro (2,2), length 2 shaku 1 sun

ISOGAI JYUROZEMON MASAHISA, age 25
katana mei: Mitsumori (1,1), length 2 shaku 9 sun
wakizashi mei: Kunimune (2,1), length 2 shaku
te yari

HORIBEI YAHYOE AKIZANE, age 77
katana mei: mumei, length 3 shaku
wakizashi: none
naginata

CHIKAMATSU KANROKU YUKISHIGE, age 34
katana mei: Mitsuyoshi (2,2), length 2 shaku
wakizashi mei: unknown, length unknown
long yari

TOMIMORI SUKEEMON MASAYORI, age 34
katana mei: Tomokuni (2,1), length 2 shaku 8 sun
wakizashi mei: Mitsushige (1,2), length unknown
long yari

SHIOTA MATANOJYO TAKANORI, age 35
katana mei: Kunihisa (1,1), length 2 shaku 4 sun
wakizashi mei: Kunihisa (1,1), length 1 shaku 6 sun

HAYAMI TOZAEMON MITSUTAKA, age 42
katana mei: Hiromitsu (3,1), length 2 shaku 7 sun
wakizashi mei: unknown, length unknown
bow and arrow

AKABANE GENZO SHIGEKATA, age 35
katana mei: mumei, length unknown
wakizashi mei: unknown, length unknown

OKUDA MAGODAIU SHIGEMORI, age 57
katana mei: Kunitaka (1,2), length 2 shaku 4 sun
wakizashi mei: unknown, length 1 shaku 6 sun

YADA GOROEMON SUKETAKA, age 29
katana mei: Kunisuke (1,2), length 2 shaku
wakizashi mei: mumei, length 1 shaku 6 sun

OISHI SEZAEMON NOBUKIYO, age 29
katana mei: mumei, length 2 shaku 9 sun
wakizashi mei: mumei, length 1 shaku 9 sun
long yari

OISHI SHIKARA YOSHIKANE, age 16
katana mei: Tomokuni (2,1), length 2 shaku 2 sun plus
wakizashi mei: Hiroshige (3,2), length 1 shaku 1 sun
short yari

HORIBE YASUBEI TAKETSUNE, age 34
katana mei: Kanekuni (2,1), lenght 2 shaku 8 sun
wakizashi mei: mumei, length unknown

NAKAMURA KANSUKE MASATOKI, age ?
katana mei: Nagakuni (1,1), length 2 shaku 4 sun
wakizashi mei: mumei, length unknown
long yari

SUGANOYA HANNOJYO MASATOSHI, age 44
katana mei: Michinaga (1,2), length 2 shaku 8 sun
wakizashi mei: mumei, length unknown

FUWA KAZUEMON MASATANE, age 34
katana mei: Norimitsu (1,1), length unknown
wakizashi mei: Norimitsu (1,1), length unknown

KIMURA OKAUEMON SADAYUKI, age 46
katana mei: Norimitsu (1,1), length 2 shaku 6 sun
wakizashi mei: mumei, length 2 shaku 1 sun

OHIBA SABUROBYOE MITSUTADA, age 51
katana mei: Yasutaka (1,2), length 2 shaku 4 sun
wakizashi mei: Yasutaka (1,2), length 2 shaku
bow and arrow

OKANO KINUEMON KANEHIDE, age 24
katana mei: Tomohisa (2,1), length 2 shaku 4 sun
wakizashi mei: Michinaga (1,2), length unknown
jyumonji yari

KAIGA YAZAEMON TOMONOBU, age 54
katana mei: mumei, length unknown
wakizashi mei: mumei, length unknown

OTAKA GENGO TADAO, age 32
katana mei: Tomohisa (2,1), length 2 shaku 6 sun
wakizashi mei: Masakuni (5,1), length 9 sun 5 bu

OKAJIMA YASOUEMON TSUNEKI, age 38
katana mei: Tomokuni (2,2), length 2 shaku 8 sun
wakizashi mei: Tomokuni (2,2), length 1 shaku 4 sun

YOSHIDA SAWAUEMON KANESADA, age 29
katana attribution: Mizuta, length 2 shaku 9 sun
wakizashi attribution: Mizuta, length 1 shaku 8 sun
long yari

TAKEBAYASHI TADAHICHI TAKASHIGE, age 32
katana mei: Hirokuni (1,1), length 2 shaku
wakizashi attribution: Mizuta, length 1 shaku 6 sun
long yari

KURAHASHI DENSUKE TAKEYUKI, age 34
katana mei: Hirokuni (1,2), length 2 shaku 8 sun
wakizashi mei: mumei. length 2 shaku

HAZAMA SHINROKURO MITSUKAZE, age 24
katana mei: Kunisuke (2,2), length 2 shaku 2 sun
wakizashi mei: Kunisuke (2,2), length unknown
te yari

MURAMATSU KIHEI HIDENAO, agae 62
katana mei: Kuninaga (1,1), length 2 shaku 8 sun
wakizashi mei: Samuhiro (?,1), length 2 shaku 4 sun
long yari

[lonely panet]

i can offer this post card.

By the looks of the condition of there weapons, I would guess they were on the bones of there asses. (poor)

 

 

[b.hennick]

Their story ended about 1702. I would expect their swords not to reflect blades of the 18th or later. They had 100 years of Shinto swords to choose from but seem not to favour Hizento.

[Cameron]

1). Some smiths look popular across- ie Hiromitsu, Norimitsu seemed popular

2). Daishos from a single smith (at least in provenance obviously)

[Vermithrax16]

Interesting. Seems a motley lot of samurai and swords. 

[Cameron]

3) Signed Katana with mumei wakizashis. Makes sense under the utilitarian-based bushido of the very act they were about to undertake. ie your primary blade should be the most reliable.  

 

question- am i right in believing wakizashis were the more personal reflections of their personal honour? (I would expect this as it would spend most of its life at their hip, and would ultimately be the blade they could be required to commit seppuku with)

[PNSSHOGUN]

Lots of Kunisuke, I wonder if it was Kawachi No Kami smiths? One would imagine a Wakizashi would  be more important in day to day activities as that is the sword you would have indoors or situations where your Daito was not allowed or not practical.

[Ken-Hawaii]

There were also some old men in that group, considering that "old" was considered to be about 40, back then.

[Cameron]

I find it very common for the upper class throughout pre-Meiji history to have significantly higher 'old' ages for obvious, less adverse life conditions.

[C0D]

Seems there are also many very long blades, well over the 2.5 shaku which is now considered "standard" for practice for a man 175 cm tall, which i guess they weren't

[Alex A]

I find it very common for the upper class throughout pre-Meiji history to have significantly higher 'old' ages for obvious, less adverse life conditions.

 

 

Hizen Tadakuni swordsmith......94, excellent by todays standards. Died 1690,s

[Robin]

The lenght of many blades is such I suspect they measured the full lenght instead of the nagasa.

 

I'm just short of 180 cm and I use 2.45. Anything above 2.5 and I won't be able to get the blade out of the saya properly!

An average Japanese man around 1700 was about 165 cm. "recommended blade lenght" about 2.35.

A nagasa of 2.8 and 2.9...not likely.

[C0D]

The lenght of many blades is such I suspect they measured the full lenght instead of the nagasa.

 

I'm just short of 180 cm and I use 2.45. Anything above 2.5 and I won't be able to get the blade out of the saya properly!

An average Japanese man around 1700 was about 165 cm. "recommended blade lenght" about 2.35.

A nagasa of 2.8 and 2.9...not likely.

There are schools of iai that use odachi, so it's not a problem to get out the blade of the saya, just i feel interesting that such long blade was their sword of choice

[Rivkin]

There is a documented weird thing about Edo samurai is that their height was at about 160cm against 170cm country average and kept declining with class. Tokugawa were nearly all in 140s (mistake - in 150s).

Strict monastery diet in childhood, and narrow rice diet (with common beri-beri) in adhulthood. A wealthy farmer arguably enjoed a much higher quality of living.

 

Compared to Nambokucho bushi with their 180cm and meat-venison rich eating.

 

Kirill R.

[Hoshi]

Very interesting. Do you have a source for this? This is fascinating but I suspect it's exaggerated and that the data, if any, is very weak, but I may be wrong.

 

However, Diet + Genes = Height is a proven scientific fact.  

 

Nambokucho swords are heavier, larger, longer, and all together require a more muscular frame to use effectively. If the Samourai class and in particular the Tokugawa were short during Edo times, it makes sense to 'regulate' the size of sword to prevent their opponents from having a reach advantage, at least psychologically. Reach is a monumental factor in battle, and perhaps the single most important one when it comes to single combat. 

[Rivkin]

Actually found it. Two books (actually pamphlets) by Suzuki Hisashi in Japanese, bones of Japanese, and bones of Daimyo respectively.

Daimyo are in 150-160cm range, especially Tokugawas and their class. Wealthy peasants on top of the distribution. Much larger spread of distribution for Nambokucho.

 

It is a well known topic in historical publications. Japanese did extensive jobs studying old remains, and high ranks from Edo period are plainly speaking problematic. Also lots of lead from cosmetics. There are even articles in medical journals on sword wound mortality rates or studies of decapitated heads, or analysis of bones from different historical regions of Japan for different nutrition.

 

Kirill R.

[Dave R]

 I remember reading that they deliberately chose longer swords, not caring about the law, as this was a mission they would not survive. The armour they wore was put together in secret, and to a certain extent improvised. 

[eternal_newbie]

There are schools of iai that use odachi, so it's not a problem to get out the blade of the saya, just i feel interesting that such long blade was their sword of choice

 

On Youtube there's some clips of Shin muso Hayashizaki Ryu paired waza. These demonstrate the fast draw and use of a roughly 3 shaku blade against a wakizashi at close range, and with surprising speed/maneuverability considering the length of the sword. The founder of the school lived during the late 1600s and 1700s and supposedly used a blade over 3 shaku in length.

[Jussi Ekholm]

It would be nice to know where Yamanaka? got this information. Here are the Kanji that were taken from Rich Steins site where the article states the names are referenced to the kanji tables on the site. I do think there might be some incorrect ones as typing errors etc.

 

Norinaga 則永, Even though I would think this might be Shikkake Norinaga (則長) and c. 85cm tachi

1x daitō, 1x shōtō

Shimada

1x daitō

Hiromitsu 広光, I'd think Sōshū Hiromitsu but there are other possibilities too

1x daitō, 1x shōtō

Hirokuni 広国, Can't guess which one this is

1x daitō

Kunisuke 国助, Probably Kawachi no Kami

2x daitō, 4x shōtō

Kunimitsu 国光, Lots of possibilities for 80cm+ tachi, Awataguchi, Rai, Shintōgo, Uda etc...

1x daitō

Michitaka 道高, Can't find smith working pre 1700 signing this mei.

1x daitō

Yoshitsuna 義綱, Most likely a Shimada smith

1x shōtō

Michinaga 道永, There is only 1 Mino smith pre 1700 in Sesko

2x daitō, 1x shōtō

Teruhiro 輝弘, This is most likely a smith of famous Teruhiro (輝広) lineage

1x shōtō

Mitsumori 光盛, 1 Bizen & 1 Etchū smiths listed in Sesko

1x daitō

Kunimune 国宗, So many possibilities

1x shōtō

Mitsuyoshi 三吉, Can't find anyone signing like this

1x daitō

Tomokuni 共国, Can't find anyone signing like this, I believe it might be 倫国, long tachi by Rai smith?

3x daitō, 1x shōtō

Mitsushige 光重, Many possibilities

1x shōtō

Kunihisa 国久, Many possibilities I think Uda might be strong one

1x daitō, 1x shōtō

Kunitaka 国高, Higo,Uda,Settsu?

1x daitō

Hiroshige 広重, Many possibilities

1x shōtō

Kanekuni 包国, Yamato

1x daitō

Nagakuni 長国, Ōshū

1x daitō

Norimitsu 則光, Bizen comes first in mind of course but also Kaga

2x daitō, 1x shōtō

Yasutaka 康高, Only one Bizen smith in Sesko

1x daitō, 1x shōtō

Tomohisa 共久, Most likely candidate is Uda Tomohisa (友久)

2x daitō

Masakuni 政国, Heianjō?

1x shōtō

Mizuta

1x daitō, 2x shōtō

Hirokuni 寛国, Can't find any smiths

2x daitō

Kuninaga 国長, Many possibilities, Rai, Mino, Uda etc.

1x daitō

Samuhiro ??

1x shōtō

 

Of course lots of guesswork in that above list and saying anything of real value is difficult.

[Cameron]

Impressively thorough work there jussie!

[Cameron]

Uda pattern possibly for the multiple choices- Uda as a province or region, I presume?

[BIG]

Hi Cameron, Yamato province, Uda district..

 

https://wiki.samurai-archives.com/index.php?title=Yamato_province

 

Best

[Cameron]

now we're cooking! so Jussie, if we were go for the yamato and uda smiths more particularly where possible- what would that final list look like?

 

(if you're interested of course, have already been accused of being too 'demanding')

[Jussi Ekholm]

I have very little knowledge of Samurai history in general, so someone like Markus could most likely offer insight on the status of these ronin before losing their master, their approximate wage levels, importance etc. That could be important in determing what swords they might have had. As I think something like Awataguchi or high quality Rai would have been priced above basic men and mostly owned by high ranking and rich individuals. I've been just researching so much top tier swords in books over the last 6 months that I tend to now automatically go for top tier smiths when seeing famous names...

 

The Asano retainers were under Asano Naganori in Akō domain, that was in Harima province. Bizen was of course major sword supplier during the old times, don't know if the border next to province had any meaningful influnce in old swords, there were just so many Bizen swords available. Settsu being also a neighbouring province and a major hub (Ōsaka) it might have had an influence as possibly many swords by Kawachi no Kami Kunisuke are in the list and possibly some other Settsu smiths as well. Etchū province where Uda school is located is geographically bit further away. I think apart from the few famous makers Uda school might have been thought as workhorse swords even back in the day?

 

I would need to see the Japanese signatures / the kanji of them to make any further educated guesses about the smiths. As some of the signatures would most likely have more than just 2 characters it would make identifying particular smiths bit easier.

[vajo]

Incredible knowledge Jussi. 

[Ken-Hawaii]

The correct use of saya-biki can allow a very-long blade to be drawn. I'm Robin's height, & have no trouble drawing a 3.0-shaku blade, although I use a 2.45 in MJER, & a 2.35 in kenjutsu.

[Bugyotsuji]

Looking at this:

HORIBEI YAHYOE AKIZANE, age 77

katana mei: mumei, length 3 shaku
wakizashi: none
naginata

 

I can imagine word being passed around before they set off. "Take your longest blades, in roughest koshirae possible, but leave the treasure sword to guard your family after you."

 

PS There are exhibition rooms inside Oishi Jinja within the Ako Castle grounds, displaying several of their artefacts and swords. Sadly as is often the case, the place does not even attempt to meet museum standards so everything although indoors, is pretty much at the mercy of the elements. Sssshhhh... do not mention the R word.

[Dave R]

Looking at this:

HORIBEI YAHYOE AKIZANE, age 77

katana mei: mumei, length 3 shaku

wakizashi: none

naginata

 

I can imagine word being passed around before they set off. "Take your longest blades, in roughest koshirae possible, but leave the treasure sword to guard your family after you."

 

PS There are exhibition rooms inside Oishi Jinja within the Ako Castle grounds, displaying several of their artefacts and swords. Sadly as is often the case, the place does not even attempt to meet museum standards so everything although indoors, is pretty much at the mercy of the elements. Sssshhhh... do not mention the R word.

 

 I like the comment, but not the neglect . There is a cycle of plays that effectively tell the story of the 47, but names changed to protect the producer... It was not a popular theme with the authorities, so the events were portrayed as heroic fiction. The prints of the plays are well worth looking at.

 One intriguing thing of the original action, was the public declaration as it happened that this was a "legitimate act of revenge" and no threat to other neighbouring households.

[Rivkin]

I suspect a typical high quality pre Muromachi blade at this point of time would be mumei, and possibly still longer than shinto katanas.

Every single signed piece here is on the other hand likely to be shinto.

Just a guess.

 

Kirill R.

[Dave R]

i can offer this post card.

By the looks of the condition of there weapons, I would guess they were on the bones of there asses. (poor)

 

  They were certainly destitute, being Ronin, but their weapons will have been functional. I strongly suspect that the missing parts and poor condition are due more to later souvenir hunting and neglect.