Kantei Quizz N°7

[Jean]

http://www.aoi-art.com/kantei/kantei07.html

[saemonjonosuke]

I didn't study it, just a quick idea

Bizen Unji

[sabiji]

Late Kamakura.

Perhaps Osafune. One side of boshi looks kike a sansaku Boshi. But Nagamitsu´s Hada is tighter.

And there is Ko-Nie.

Mmmh...Sanenaga???

[Jean]

The Midare Utsuri leads to Bizen den.

 

There is a flavour of Yamashiro in this nie-deki blade.

 

Niedeki blade+ choji midare+ very rare mei leads to think ko bizen as these smiths have worked in the Bizen tradition, the Yamashiro tradition and a mix of both

 

Now the smith : Tomonari, Masatsune ..

[Jean]

Forget to say that the mix mokume/itame hada is also one of ko bizen kantei point

[saemonjonosuke]

Many bizen smiths made the hamon in ko-nie deki.

The sugata with the longer kissaki points more to late kamakura or Nambokucho.

 

(That's I think )

[takakage]

i agree with Johnny too.

i don't find the hada enough tigth for a ko bizen (often ko itame and sometimes nagare) and kissaki seems chu , so i'm looking for an osafune smith with sugu and saka ashi

[takakage]

seems to be a long mei of osafune smith, saka ashi of chikakage ?

[Jean]

I agree with Patrick, the mei seems quite long and can fit a rather long mei which can lead to a mei like : "Bizen kuni Osafine ju ..." and late kamakura or beginng Nambokucho

 

The mei is rare - we are looking to a Bizen master whose mei is rare.

 

Chikakage : http://www.nihonto.com/abtartchikakage.html

http://www007.upp.so-net.ne.jp/m-kenji/ ... kakage.htm

 

It does not fit. Midare Utsuri is subdued - hint of masame in the hada - The grain structure in the shinogi-ji will be a fine masame.

 

I disagree with Johnny concerning a lot of Bizen smiths making nie deki blades. Even if covered by nie, (except in Sue Bizen where there are nie deki blades), Bizen hamon is nioi deki based in Kamakura/Nambokucho.

 

 

If we accept the description of "konie deki"

In fact, only ko-bizen could fit a nie deki hamon, sue Bizen not having midare utsuri. (Ther is of course Ko Aoe also)

[takakage]

so an early work of motoshige seems possible, a touch of yamashiro den in the hamon .

[saemonjonosuke]

Yes, 99 % of the bizen smiths worked in this period in Nioi, that's correct.

But not all.

[Jean]

Johnny,

 

There are always exceptions but considering a kantei, you are not suppose to deal with the "one" exception over one hundred.

 

Patrick,

 

http://www.samuraisword.com/nihontodisp ... /index.htm

http://www.nihonto.com/abtartmotoshige.html

 

Objections :

 

One of the important kantei points of this smith is that the inner outline (tops) of the midare hamon will make a seemingly straight line as a whole.

 

Motoshige's boshi is also unique. It will undulate modestly forming a ko-maru shape with a short kaeri at the tip and give the semblance of a sansaku type of boshi. His average boshi has a pointed tip with kaeri.

 

Unfortunately the picture of the kissaki is not good but if we believe the oshigata, the boshi don't seem to fit.

 

Another big objection is here : http://www.touken.or.jp/english/nihon_koto_shi/(22)%20No%20569.htm. Mei are not scarce

 

Reinhard, Guido, Darcy, any comments

[takakage]

yes , long mei to this blade can't match to motoshige mei with this suguta.

motoshige blades are often more powerful in soden bizen. too bad.

[Jean]

Patrick,

 

I am not satisfied either by Ko Bizen or Ko Osafune, because of the suguta.

 

I do the kantei from given information, Is the hamon really niedeki??

[saemonjonosuke]

Jean,

Sorry, I am speaking before Patrick.

 

I think Tsuruta is saying: clear nioguchi and ko-nie.

So a hamon based on nioi with ko-nie.

 

But i can be wrong.

[nagamaki - Franco]

 

Nio Kiyotsuna

 

 

[Jean]

Piers, Koichi san, could you translate what is written on the Aoi Art Japanese idoma site. Does it say niedeki?

[Jean]

Franco

 

I have a Nio Nambokucho katana with Tanobe sayagaki stating that it is typical of the school, not at all the hada, Nio school will rather have some kind of shirake utsuri...

 

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/sale/07509.html

 

I am only regreting that only 4 of us give an opinion on this blade. Whatever the result/comment a lot of newbies can benefit from our inputs.

 

I bet that no more than 10% of NMB members would have linked ko Aoe to

Ko Bizen (and certainly notme )

[Guest reinhard]

I am only regreting that only 4 of us give an opinion on this blade. Whatever the result/comment a lot of newbies can benefit from our inputs.

 

No, they don't.

According to the previous comments, this blade ranges between late Heian/early Kamakura and Nambokucho-period. It is either nioi-deki, with clear nioi and ko-nie or nie-deki. It could be either Ko-Bizen (for "mokume/itame is also one of Ko-Bizen kantei points"), Unji, Sanenaga, Chikakage ("saka-ashi"), Motoshige or any other Bizen smith "with a flavour of Yamashiro". Regarding to Yamato traits, why not Suo-Nio? (now midare-utsuri is a bit of a problem here).

 

My advice to newbies: Stick to real kantei, where exemplary blades are discussed in a reasonable manner. Aoi-Art and its funny guessing game should be left to the "insiders". Lean back and enjoy the show.

 

reinhard

[nagamaki - Franco]

My advice to newbies: Stick to real kantei, where exemplary blades are discussed in a reasonable manner. Aoi-Art and its funny guessing game should be left to the "insiders". Lean back and enjoy the show.

 

Reinhard, agreed, AOI can be kind of with its kantei games.

 

In response to Jean, early Nio is known to have ladder utsuri, that, plus, I'm having difficulty accepting what is shown on the oshigata as being midare utsuri, but that's my problem. Once again picture kantei leaves much to be desired here. There seems to be a masame running thru the monouchi and in general the grain is not so tightly forged. Thoughts of Uda crossed my mind too, but the utsuri depicted on the oshigata swayed my decision. So much for a 2 cent bet.

 

Jean its friday evening, most people are probably about enjoying a or something similar rather than playing pin the tail on the donkey.

[Brian]

Reinhard,

I beg to differ. We all know that some shun any form of online kantei, and that is their perogative. However at last count, there were about 50 countries visiting here, and how many of those hold formal kantei sessions? Even going overseas once a year will not make you much better unless you have the time and money that most don't have.

Also, I think it has been clearly explained that online kantei is just a fun game, and not a replacement for formal and proper hands-on study. But saying that no-one benefits is simply not true. A lot of people won't post an answer, but they do read the replies and then go hit the books and study up on the smiths mentioned. That info sticks, and there is indeed a lot of knowledge learned. It's getting a bit tiring slamming every online "kantei" session, and would be far more valid if there weren't atari calls on every exercise.

Yes, it's not an ideal situation at all, but it is fun sometimes, and those that think there isn't enough info, or the given info is misleading, could do worse than at least identify what they do see or don't see. Frankly, sometimes pics show even more than the eyes see in person.

How about we take it for what it is, (a bit of fun) and if there is a better way, then let's do it?

 

Brian

[Eric H]

Jean wrote:

I have a Nio Nambokucho katana with Tanobe sayagaki stating that it is typical of the school, not at all the hada, Nio school will rather have some kind of shirake utsuri...

Nio Kiyotsuna's school respresenting the SUO province is known for the so-called dan utsuri which is present on their works produced in the Kamakura period. dan utsuri is a name given to a type of transverse utsuri formed stepwise along the hamon.

 

Eric

[Guest reinhard]

Reinhard,

Also, I think it has been clearly explained that online kantei is just a fun game. But saying that no-one benefits is simply not true.Yes, it's not an ideal situation at all, but it is fun sometimes

How about we take it for what it is, (a bit of fun) and if there is a better way, then let's do it?

 

First of all, I was referring to Jean's complaints (only four members/ newbies could benefit).

Second: It is about high time to talk about the term Kantei and what it is all about. Kantei is a method of learning. An exemplary blade is presented, either in nature or FULLY described with precise oshigata (this CAN be done online also) and the maker/school is supposed to be deduced logically by characteristics. Mishina Kenji and others offer/ed true Kantei on their sites. Aoi-art does not.

What I was referring to in the first place was, that NEWBIES won't profit from neither Aoi-arts commercial guessing-game nor from the strange comments given here. Making wild guesses might be fun for those with some basic knowledge, but it is misleading and confusing for beginners reading about "kantei" first and taking this theatre of the absurd for the real thing, only finding other people constricted in wild speculation. It is not responsible.

 

But most of all:

 

NihonTo is not about fun in the first place. Never was, never will be.

 

reinhard

[paulb]

Dear Reinhard,

I agree with much that you say regarding Kantei. I actually started doing the original Aoi art kantei when it was a regular feature of their site several years ago. Snice then I have moved on to doing the NBTHK and NTHK kantei which appear in their respective journals. In the absense of many top class swords to examine these Shijo Kantei have proven to be an excellent learnig tool. I do not take part in the current AOI quiz (which is how they describe it) I dont find the images or the descriptons clear enough, (although that may be my eyesight in the case of the images) and I would be doing little more than guessing which I dont find a helpful learning experience.

Where I do disagree with you is in your comment "Nihonto is not about fun". Of course it is, or rather it is about enjoyment and appreciation both of which contribute to having fun.

If We did not enjoy the study and research what would be the motivation of spending hours, days and years in study not to mention the accumulated thousands of dollars in pursuit of the subject?

I regard myself as a serious, sometimes too serious student of Nihonto. Virtually all of my spare time is devoted to the subject and has been for more than 25 years. If I did not enjoy (have fun) doing it wht would be the point?

[Brian]

I am not going to get into the "fun" debate, as I am sure everyone has their own opinions on how they enjoy things that take up much of their free time. It is up to each individual as to how they manage their hobbies and/or preoccupations, but I feel sorry for anyone who is so deeply immersed that they can't enjoy their field of interest and still have fun.

 

I do know that this field had better do something fast about encouraging newcommers to learn to appreciate Nihonto and how to identify, conserve and appreciate them. It is pretty obvious that even in Japan, less and less newcommers have an interest, and in 200 years time, there is a danger of Nihonto just becomming another curiosity like stamp collecting and sports.

An "all-or-nothing" attitude is pushing more and more people away from true appreciation, and it is no wonder that people are using swords for bush cutting and putting them to grinders etc.

At least we owe it to beginners to educate them to a point that they will look after their swords for the next generation who might restore or research them further.

 

I understand all the limitations of exercises like Aoi is running. However on a properly calibrated monitor, things like hamon, hada and boshi can be easily seen. So can yasurime and sugata.

So what if there is not as much as a true kantei? Not everyone has access to these, whether they be online or in person. It's not all about comming down to a particular smith.

If a beginner is only able to learn to identify a hada or a hamon pattern, or a certain hataraki or boshi...then they are one step closer. They have learned something. Yes, there are some misleading comments or confusing statements. Just like you would get in a real kantei where you are unsure or a novice. At least here people who might not have access to good swords can see the thought processes involved and realise how technical and advanced this field is. This will lead to an appreciation of the art and a willingness to learn more in many cases.

 

No-one is forced to participate though. However ideally we wouldn't be slamming the whole process, but rather educating by saying "this actually doesn't look like that..it looks like xxx" or pointing out where the discrepancies lie.

 

Yep, everyone has their own opinions. Make up your own mind what is constructive and what is counter productive to the field as a whole and go with it.

 

Brian

[Guest reinhard]

Brian,

 

The "no fun" statement was badly put from my side and you are right: Enjoying the subject must be part of every hobby or passion. What I meant was: Learning about something in order to enjoy it later is not necessarily fun in the first place.

Now Kantei is about learning. This can be fun too, but what happens with Aoi-Art's quizz here is slipping beyond its purpose. A beginner watching us, he will probably get the impression, Kantei is about guessing wildly and in the end one lucky guy will accidentally hit the nail. This is partly due to the limited informations given by Aoi-Art. This has nothing to do with calibration of screens, but with infos nobody can properly depict and must be mentioned. Kantei is about fully exposing a blade for learning, not to mask essential details in order to increase suspence or for commercial reasons.

Going back to this quizz: Suo Nio is quite a reasonable guess. Unfortunately the Ko-Nio school is known for its very particular utsuri. Nagayama Kokan names it "hera-kage". The Ju-Bi tachi in the Seikado Bunko is just described as having nie-utsuri. With Tsuruta-san you just don't know what he precisely means by midare-utsuri, and this is exactly illustrating what I meant before: Reading "midare-utsuri", some of us started mentioning Bizen smiths from Ko-Bizen up to Namboku-cho period. This may be fun for some and that's O.K., but it is in no way helpful for newbies (referring to Jean's remark again).

 

reinhard

[Jean]

Paul has written :

If We did not enjoy the study and research what would be the motivation of spending hours, days and years in study not to mention the accumulated thousands of dollars in pursuit of the subject?

I regard myself as a serious, sometimes too serious student of Nihonto. Virtually all of my spare time is devoted to the subject and has been for more than 25 years. If I did not enjoy (have fun) doing it wht would be the point?

 

My dear Paul, of course you are right, what would think 95% of earth population of this discussion as the only serious matter for them is to survive.

 

As a survivor myself, I take things as they come and enjoy every second of life, I never take myself seriously, I am member of several associations. I have teached different courses over 30 years and am currently giving free training courses to engineers and keep being requested to carry on year after year.

 

One thing I have learnt from these experiences is that :

 

- being an expert does not imply at all being an educator.

- To be a scholar does not authorize anyone to decide what is educational or not for others, people being by essence individuals and what is good for someone is not automatically for others

 

For those who want to try Mishina sensei kanteis, there are available on the web and you will find dicussion about them on other sword forii where Ted, Guido participate.

 

Here is another very good article written by Paul Martin on Kantei :

http://www.to-ken.com/articles/appraisingkantai.htm

You will notice the beginning of his last paragraph sentence

Everybody has his conception of what/how is kantei

[Jean]

In fact, in kantei, the answer is of no importance (IMHO). the only thing interesting is what leads you to this conclusion, the demonstration is interesting because if you put it black on white on a paper you will know by the answer if your observation and reasonning are good or where you stumble.

 

The answer is nothing, you will only learn if you have atari, that your reasonning was good.

If you are wrong, by the explanation you will note what you miss and progress.

 

The only interesting kantei cession are Darcy's ones, not because the pictures but because of explanation.

 

Now real kantei with real blades are much more difficult. You must have assimilate a lot of technical info on each school, principal masters characteristics but you have to be able to read a blade and believe me it is very difficult, first times you will need an instructor to show you the different acivities, where to look at ... Tsuruta san nevertheless is right when he says that in kantei monouchi and kissaki boshi are fundamental

[Brian]

Seems like discussions about kantei can be just as educational as kantei itself

 

Brian

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

For those who want to try Mishina sensei kanteis, there are available on the web and you will find dicussion about them on other sword forii where Ted, Guido participate.

 

 

 

It seems you have missed the last train Jean :lol: Mishina san has ceased kantei since two monthes (the last one was june kantei)