Koshirae Fitters Stamping Blades

[Bruce Pennington]

This discussion could go on the Arsenal Stamps thread, since it's strayed considerably from the titled topic, but there are some collectors that are quite interested in koshirae, so I think it deserves it's own thread.

 

There are a number of blades that have alpha-numeric numbers stamped on the end of the nakago, and I've started this thread to document the practice, and where possible, identify the reasons for it.

 

Posts by Ray Singer and Chris (Vajo) on the "Show Us Your High Class Gunto" thread (http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/18610-show-us-your-high-class-gunto/page-7) have revealed two gendaito made by two different smiths that are fitted with near identical, high-quality fittings, and both are stamped with numbers of similar style on the same location of the nakago. I've also recently come across a Mantetsu stamped in a similar way with a number that matches the numbers stamped on the tsuba and seppa. The fittings are high quality, though not the top-quality of Ray's and Chris' examples. The 3 indicate that the numbers on the blades were put there by the koshirae manufacturer/fitter and not by the smith.

 

Ray's:

 

Chris':

 

Mantetsu:

[Bruce Pennington]

I should note that George Trotter has already identified a numbering practice on nakago by the Yamagami Brothers on this thread: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/8546-survey-of-gunto-contract-numbers/?hl=%2Byamagami+%2Bbrothers

 

So, this thread isn't claiming that all numbers on nakago are done by fitters.

 

And of course, we all know of the Mantetsu practice.

 

If anyone else has examples of nakago stamped numbers matching koshirae, it would be good to document them here.

 

Thanks!

[vajo]

I have another one from Yamagami Akihisa. Stamped no. 618

Black lacquered ito and a different saya that looks like a type98 but the fittings are different to type98. The stamp is on the fittings too.

 

[george trotter]

Good info guys.

Vajo san, I had a good look at the pics and can add a little info to your description. I already have this info, but your pics help a lot.

 

Signed AKIHISA in tachimei.with star stamp. Date side has "matsu in a circle" stamp in front of number 819 (not 618).

 

I know we have discussed these numbers before but it is known that the Yamagami brothers had plain numbers on their tang tips between Sho 16/7 - 16/12 (106-566)

They began using  the "matsu in a circle" number and star 17/2 - 18//10 (452 - 1377)

Started using a "kana" prefix in 19/3 (" i " 2353). This style has been seen on other star stamped RJT swords so seems to be an RJT numbering system?

 

To analyse, I think the plain number and matsu / number may be production output numbers of the brothers themselves, but as the production seems high, could be fittings mounter assembly numbers. The fittings mounters were also mounting swords for other smiths, so could be an explanation of why the numbers seem a bit high for blade production tally numbers.

 

Whether the matsu stamp belongs to the brothers or to a mounting shop I don't know for certain, but I will look through my WWII books and see if there was a mounting shop named "Matsu.something" around then.

 

As the kana prefix numbers are seen on other RJT blades these may be RJT controlled numbers for either production (by district) or again, for use by district mounting workshops.

BTW, very interesting fittings.

 

Keep up the good work,.

[vajo]

Hello George, thank you very much for your very interesting informations. You are right, the number is 819 (was mabye to late last evening). I put it to the description on the sword for my records, not to forget. 

[george trotter]

Attached is entry in 1942 book 'Dai Nihon Token Shoka Meikan' (book of swords/makers/fittings/polishers etc) page 141 which shows a bit about MATSUYAMA's GUNTO SEISAKIUJO which was in Tokyo city, Shiba Ku, Shinbashi 5 chome.  Matsuyama's was a Military Sword fittings shop/factory. 

 

This book advertisement shows their logo which is "yama" in a circle. Whether this is their mark on all things including swords they mounted, or whether, when they were mounting private swords or RJT swords, they stamped "matsu in a circle"  I can't say. Maybe our Japanese speakers have more information on the fittings shops of WWII in some of their own WWII sword books?

 

First pic shows the shop and text and logo. Second pic shows the matsu in a circle stamp on a Yamagami Munetoshi RJT sword dated Sho 18/5 in good quality Type 3 mounts.

 

BTW, as a matter of interest, both of my Munetoshi blades have "nagashi" polish lines on the machi portion of the shinogi area under the habaki (7 lines, and both have 6 lines on the kissaki mune area). These are the polisher's signature.

 

So, not sure if I am helping here or confusing things further.

Regards,

[Bruce Pennington]

George,

The Japaneseswordindex.com has the yama listed as:

 

 

"Gunto Sei Saku Jo

Located in Tokyo. The company was owned by Mr. Matsuyama. This firm made koshirae for both army and navy, as well as koshirae for police, diplomatic, and ceremonial uses."

 

It seems too coincidental that the Matsu and yama are both parts of the owner's name. I wonder if the brothers were on contract with Matsuyama's shop for those 2 years (or vice versa). Do you know if they were RJT smiths the whole time, or maybe just started in '43? (my memory fails me as to the original start of the official RJT operation).

[george trotter]

Hi Bruce,

if I remember correctly, both smiths were by sho 17/3 members of the North Japan Swordforging Assoc. vice-chaired by Kasama Shigetsugu. These members were 46 smiths who were spread from  the north of Tokyo up to Aomori Prefecture. These smiths sent or had their blades collected by the assoc. and taken to Tokyo where they were polished and mounted (maybe some were polished before sending to Tokyo - not sure). Finished swords were sold to the army for resale through the officer's clubs (I I have got it right - maybe the Assoc. had its own shop?).

 

From books, both Yamagami brothers were RJT and started making RJT contract swords from 1942 . I have seen:

Akihisa - star - 17/2 - #452  

Munetoshi - star - 17/11 - #422 using original "toshi" kanji

Munetoshi - star - 1711 - #matsu/443 using new "toshi" kanji

 

It may be only a small thing, but virtually every Yamagami Bros. blade I have seen has had the polisher's "nagashi" signature lines. Every Yamagami RJT or non-RJT blade I have had "in-hand" has been "polisher signed". This has to be qualified a little to add that all I have seen from non-RJT sword Akihisa 16/9  #308 to RJT sword Munetoshi 18/5  #matsu/1080 have the nagashi lines. After this date they seem not to have the lines - eg: Munetoshi RJT 19/3 ta2353 has no lines.

This may mean the Assoc. changed polishers or perhaps production pressures meant that they had to do "quicker" polishing?

 

So....regarding the matter of MATSU, as the blades were sent to Tokyo for polishing and mounting, maybe one of the contractors used by the Assoc. was Matsuyama? or some other contractor using the matsu stamp...be good to find out for sure (or are we just being WAY too nerdy?).

Regards,

 

Edit to add...has any member got a WWII gendaito still in original WWII polish that has the polisher's nagashi "signature"?...be interested to find out how common this is.

[Bruce Pennington]

Another one from the Translation Assistance forum. This one by smith Tomomaro.

 

I wonder if there was a thought by the koshirae makers that painting a number on the tang was lower quality work, and stamping a number is higher quality?

[IJASWORDS]

Searching through my RJT swords I could not find any polisher "signatures". I did find a tiny mune stamp "24" on a star stamped Endo Tomonari. July 1944. Any thoughts on who or why this is stamped? 

[Bruce Pennington]

Searching through my RJT swords I could not find any polisher "signatures". I did find a tiny mune stamp "24" on a star stamped Endo Tomonari. July 1944. Any thoughts on who or why this is stamped?

 

Neil,

 

I've seen a couple of blades like this lately, and haven't a clue! Why would there be numbers if they don't have matching numbers on the koshirae? Mune stamps, up to now, have been predominantly inspector stamps - soooo, COULD be an inspector's number? But then I've recently seen a mune stamp that was the first kanji of the smith's name that made the blade, so ....

 

I've also seen a few blades with a single digit number (like "7") on the nakago end with no matching number on koshirae. So, more to this than a single answer I suspect.

[george trotter]

Neil,

 

I've seen a couple of blades like this lately, and haven't a clue! Why would there be numbers if they don't have matching numbers on the koshirae? Mune stamps, up to now, have been predominantly inspector stamps - soooo, COULD be an inspector's number? But then I've recently seen a mune stamp that was the first kanji of the smith's name that made the blade, so ....

 

I've also seen a few blades with a single digit number (like "7") on the nakago end with no matching number on koshirae. So, more to this than a single answer I suspect.

I have a RJT blade by 'Fushimi ju Takashima Kunihide'  of Kyoto (sho 19/8) that has this small number on the nakago mune. I haven't kept records, but can remember seeing it on the nakago mune of another Kunihide sho 19/8  (mine is 98 and the other is 99) and I've seen it on the nakago mune of an Okayama RJT smith (but can't remember his name). Now this one from Hyogo Prefecture. All four RJT swords were in Rinji Seishiki mounts and presumably were all mounted by an Army contractor who took swords from the mid-Japan area. I say this as the swords I've seen were all from the Osaka-Kyoto-Kobe-Okayama zone. My mune number is all there is...no numbers in paint or stamped into fittings...maybe smith tally number of RJT inspector's number or polisher's number...just don't know. All I can say is that the small size and mune placement is definitely from the Osaka/mid-Japan region.

Hope this helps

(looks like another research project for someone...(Bruce?) haha..

 

Edit to add:

there is a 2010 description of a RJT Endo Tomonari blade in Rinji Seishiki fittings dated sho 19/7 and numbered on the nakago mune '21'. you can find it under

'Late 1944' style Shin Gunto Help

so this is a second one for Tomonari of Hyogo Prefecture. This makes 5 RJT Osaka/mid-Japan RJT tangs with these small mune numbers. I can't help thinking we have a pattern here...RJT polishing contractor?

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks George! It takes someone with a knowledge of smiths to make that observation, I appreciate it.

 

I found the thread you mentioned and intended to bring the pics over, but the originator used photobucket and the files aren't available anymore. So good memory!

[Bruce Pennington]

Another one: A star-stamped blade by RJT smith Minamoto Morinobu, a resident of Higo Futami (肥後二見人).

The "9" is poorly struck on the blade.

Owned by Michael and posted here: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/28934-star-stamped-blade/

[Bruce Pennington]

Update

 

 The sample is small, but this is what I have so far.  Stamped numbers appear to have begun in Dec 1941, both for the Yamagami brothers as well as all the rest, and ran through at least 1944 (no examples of numbered '45 blades).  The vast majority of the smiths are known RJT smiths, including the Yamagami Brothers.  But the Mantetsu blades push the issue away from the Army RJT program, toward the idea that a particular koshirae shop was doing it.  As we all know, only a very small number of Mantetsu blades have these stamps, and I imagine the same can be said for the listed smiths.

Except for kao (kokuin), things stamped at the end of nakago seem to be NOT part of the mei, nor tied to the blades' smith, but rather from another agency (Discussing this idea on this thread).  The Yamagami brothers' stamped numbers are unique with the Matsu stamp preceding the number.  But even their numbers changed from the Matsu to katakana characters オ and フ

in 1944, but we see the same kanji on the Kunishiro and Masakazu blades too, which points us back to an Army, or RJT, numbering system!!!

One proposal put forth concerning the Matsu stamp, is that it indicates that the official charcoal, dictated for nihonto by the RJT program, was being used, but after reviewing this list, it makes me wonder why the mark wasn't used on other RJT smith's too, if that were the explanation.

Open to thoughts, insights, ideas!

1941, Dec	Tomomaru (RJT)	535	tsuba
1942, Apr	Masakazu (RJT)	1129	tsuba/seppa “Ni”1129
1942, May	Riyuu (RJT)	1301	RS mounts
1942, Sep	Morinobu (RJT)	95	Star; tsuba/seppa
1942	Mantetsu Koa Isshin	138	W
1942	Mantetsu Koa Isshin	184
1942	Mantetsu Koa Isshin	234	W
1942	Mantetsu Koa Isshin	278	W
1943	Mantetsu Nan	63
1943	Mantetsu Nan	168	M
1943, Feb	Munimitsu	315	Star; RS mounts
1943, Apr	Akitaka (RJT)	1098
1943	Munetaka	490
1944, Feb	Kunishiro (RJT)	オ154	Star
1944, Jul	Tomonari	24 on mune	Star
1944, Oct	Masaharu	6 on mune	Star; RS mounts
ND	Masakazu (RJT)	フ37	Star
ND	Mumei	102	Stainless; seppa
ND	Hiratoshi	456	Stainless; Toyokawa
ND	Zoheito	354 (Kanji)	98 mount

[Bruce Pennington]

Updated Yamagami brothers chart

 

Matsu

1941, July	Munetoshi	106  (RS ana)	Trotter Survey
1941, Sep	Akihisa	249  Type 98	Trotter Survey
1941, Sep	Munetoshi	308  Type 98	Trotter Collection
1941, Dec	Akihisa	566  RS Model	Windy NMB
1941, Dec	Akihisa	577 RS	Trotter Survey
?	Akihisa	松 61 RS	Trotter Survey
?	Akihisa	松 97	NMB
1942, Feb	Akihisa	松 542 RS star	Trotter Survey
1942, Apr	Munetoshi	松 11 RS	Trotter Survey
1942, Nov	Munetoshi	松 422 ? star	Trotter Survey
1942, Nov	Munetoshi	松 433 RS star	Trotter Survey
1942, Oct	Munetoshi	松 451 RS	Davidequis NMB
1943, Jan	Munetoshi	松 508 Type 98 star	Trotter Survey
1943, Mar	Akihisa	松 618 RS star	Schmucker Collection
1943, Mar	Akihisa	松 819 RS star	Trotter Survey
1943, May	Munetoshi	松 1080 RS star	Trotter Collection
1943, May	Munetoshi	松 1082 RS star	baldi1942 NMB
1943, Oct	Akihisa	松 1377 RS star	Trotter Survey
1943, Nov	Munetoshi	松 443 RS star	? NMB
1944, Feb	Kunishiro	オ 154, star	Trotter Survey
1944, Mar	Munetoshi	タ2353 Type 98 star	Trotter Survey
1942-1945 (ND)	Masakazu	フ 37 RS star	IJASWORDS

 

[Kiipu]

You missed Katsumasa!

Help with a stamping

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, Kiipu said:

You missed Katsumasa

Good one, Thomas!  Didn't have that one.  I have a Katsumasa - 168, No Date - but now I have 2!

 

I don't see Katsumasa on the RJT listing of the Japaneseswordindex.  But the massive majority of these numbered blades are RJT.  Does anyone have another source listing of RJT smiths?  If so, is he on it?

[IJASWORDS]

Bruce, you know I like to add to these little mysteries. Here's one for you, actually 4 on one Kabutogane. 

Star stamp, with 2 unknowns next to it.  

Edited December 16, 2020 by IJASWORDS
addition

[Bruce Pennington]

9 hours ago, IJASWORDS said:

4 on one Kabutogane

I know we had a thread going where we were discussing, and comparing examples, of these stamped kabutogane, but I can't find it.

 

The single one on the second pic is the "東" of the Tokyo 1st Army Arsenal inspectors.  The center star on the first pic is the emblem of the same Arsenal.  The image to the right of the star is definitely an unknown and can be seen better on this one:

But I can't make out the one on the left of your star.  That's got to be a record for the most stamps on a kabutogane!