What school does this armorer belong to?

[Nickupero]

Using our great resources here, reaching out the Katchu folks in hopes of finding out which school this piece belongs to. Mei reads Terunaga Saku. Also forgot what you call this style kabuto? Sorry for the so so iPhone pictures but I think you get an idea. Thanks in advance!

 

[uwe]

Hi Nick,

 

this smith is not listed. So I have to dig a bit deeper.....

Picture of the mei available?

[IanB]

Uwe,  Didn't we see a helmet where the haraidate ended in a fleur-de-lis recently or am I imagining it?

Ian Bottomley.

[uwe]

  On 5/22/2019 at 9:01 AM, IanB said:

Uwe,  Didn't we see a helmet where the haraidate ended in a fleur-de-lis recently or am I imagining it?

Ian Bottomley.

 

Yes Ian,

your memory serves you. Gut feeling says Haruta or later Myôchin. I´m still searching....

[uwe]

.....I guess you meant this one:

 

 

"Masanori saku"!

 

 

 

[Shogun8]

Nick,

 

Based on the shape of the mabezashi, the haraidate dai and the sanko no byo, I believe this kabuto may be from the Ichiguchi Myochin.

[Bugyotsuji]

I have heard people referring to this style as Tenkoku-zan (rear mountain) 32? Ken, Tetsu-sabi-ji (russet iron) higaki (decoration around base of hachi).

[uwe]

  On 5/22/2019 at 10:32 PM, Shogun8 said:

Nick,

 

Based on the shape of the mabezashi, the haraidate dai and the sanko no byo, I believe this kabuto may be from the Ichiguchi Myochin.

More “Owari related”, I suspect John!

[IanB]

This really has me beaten. There are features that are unusual, not only the fleur-de-lis tail on the haraidate, but the single hole in the haraidate, the very large mabezashi held in place by a kind of zaboshi as are the shiten no byo, and most peculiar, the concave shape where the mabezashi meets the koshimaki. I am ignoring the rather odd shaped shinodare and higaki plates as they may well have been added later. My gut reaction is that it is a Myochin piece, but not mainline.

Ian Bottomley

[DaveT]

Maybe it was made by a katchushi in the 1950's?

The shikoro has also been off as the byo are misplaced and kabuto-no-o himo are in the wrong ana.
I often am suspicious of things when they don't add up.

[Shogun8]

  On 5/23/2019 at 9:51 AM, IanB said:

I am ignoring the rather odd shaped shinodare and higaki plates as they may well have been added later. My gut reaction is that it is a Myochin piece, but not mainline.

Ian Bottomley

 

I agree, Ian. I think we need to consider this kabuto without the kanamono because they do not seem to fit with this piece. The shape of the hachi, especially at the top and the mabezashi/haraidate details say Ichiguchi Myochin to me, since their style is quite distinctive.

[Nickupero]

Thanks guys for chiming in, I'm quite certain this is an Edo Era piece. The inside of the Hachi is probably just as important if not more than the outside, so maybe this will help with the discussion. Took a couple of pictures with my iPhone, an older model so the camera isn't superb. 

 

[Shogun8]

Nick,

 

I think this kabuto is definitely from the Edo period, but whether it's early Edo or not is another matter. Neither the Shin Katchushi Meikan or the Chappelear lists a Masanori as belonging to the Ichiguchi Myochin, but as we all know, there are many unrecorded smiths. If you look closely, this kabuto shares many characteristics of that beautiful koboshi Ichiguchi Myochin that you recently had.

[uwe]

Well,

 

I can understand the Ichiguchi call, based on the shape and workmanship of "Masanobu" (市口明珍正信), a recorded Ichiguchi Myochin smith from Edo. See picture below:

 

 

Although totally diffrent from Fujiwara Masatsugu (藤原正次), also Ichiguchi. But that leads too far.....

 

My Owari search ended unfortunataly in a blind alley....C’est la vie

 

However, the interesting point is, that the kabuto I postet above is signed "Masanori saku" (正則作) and sports almost the same characteristics as the mentioned "Masanobu" example and the kabuto in question. "Masanori" is not listet as an Ichiguchi smith. But because he uses the same character for "Masa" (正) in his mei, like "Masanobu", we can probably assume, that he was also in the lineage of the "horsebit guys".

 

All in all, despite the odd mei "Terunaga" (輝長?), I have to admit John, that the most indications pointing towards "Ichiguchi Myochin" (市口明珍) at the moment

 

Nick, can you make a close up of the mei? Hard to read!

 

[Shogun8]

There was no question in my mind, Uwe!

[uwe]

????....as you know John. We never can be sure! First rule....there are no rules in the katchu world ????

[DaveT]

Always learning.

[Shogun8]

  On 5/24/2019 at 10:30 AM, uwe said:

....as you know John. We never can be sure! First rule....there are no rules in the katchu world

 

Of course - but that's why I said that the conclusion was mine only - arrived at with the information I had available to me and other pieces that I have seen that share the same characteristics. I'm always open to being proved wrong. The most important thing is to learn as much as possible about the item.

[IanB]

I've loaded the signature image into other software and applied filters and I am not wholly convince the first kanji is Teru.. It is possible that it is a bady written Mune.. and there are plenty of Munenaga to go at.

Ian Bottomley

[Nickupero]

Here are some images of the Mei, maybe I got it wrong?

 

[Luc T]

Stylistic, it is Ichiguchi Myochin. Also the aspect of the iron points in that direction. The exagerated shinodare are a part of their style.

[Luc T]

Munenaga is indeed possible Ian.

And there is an Ichiguchi Munenaga.

[IanB]

So far nobody, including myself, has alluded to or mentioned the kanji following  -naga. I have had a good look for a possible reading and drawn a blank. It does not seem to be related to the helmet's making (such as SAKU), the maker's age, a title or clan name or anything else I can think of.  Help!!

Ian Bottomley

[Luc T]

Sorry, I can’t help...

[Shogun8]

  On 5/26/2019 at 12:22 PM, AU60 said:

The exagerated shinodare are a part of their style.

 

You're right, Luc - I went back to look at some other examples and the strange shinodare and the igaki are indeed part of their style.

[Bugyotsuji]

Ian, the last character may be 作, with a little artistic license.

 

Look at some of the variations lower down this page!

https://moji.tekkai.com/zoom/作/page.html

[IanB]

Piers, point taken.

Ian B

[uwe]

“昨” (saku), but with a different meaning.

[Nickupero]

Thanks Gents for pouring in the effort for this one,

So would most of you agree it is most like Munenage and not Terunaga, from Ichiguchi Myochin school? Any documents supporting a Mei of this maker? 

[Luc T]

Nick, do you have a copy of the Chappelear or the Shin katchushi meikan? Munenaga is recorded in both if I remember well. but it requirs some experience with this group to recognise them.