1875/type 19 kyu gunto- real or fake?

[Pika007]

Hi everyone

I was wondering about a gunto recently posted in one of the local boards, seemingly an 1875 kyu gunto, or type 19 dress sword

i just have zero knowledge in this field and, and would appreciate any help determining if this is real or fake. Pictures attached

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Any comment is welcome, thank you.

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Hi Ofek, looks authentic to me, quite a nice example with much of the gilding left.

[Jason N]

Is there a Habaki? I don’t see one, so fake? Better pictures are needed, I can’t really tell what I’m looking at, but I’m a noob so take it with a grain of salt.

[Pika007]

Working on getting better pictures. I compared it with other type 19s and it looked ok to me, but the guy selling it is kind of shady, so i wanted a more experienced opinion.

Thank you very both very much, that was incredibly fast

 

Last question- is this an early 20c type 19 or an actual 1875 kyu gunto? 

All the examples of 1875 i can find have white same and not a black handle so i think it's a 1920-1940's type 19, but again, zero experience, i'd like to make sure

[PNSSHOGUN]

Kyu Gunto dress swords usually do not have Habaki, the blades are non tempered display pieces with etched Hamon. Exact age and model is difficult to 100% ascertain but the earlier pattern will have two hangars on the scabbard whereas the Type 19 will generally have a single hangar. An expert on these swords could probably tell you other things to look for to differentiate them.

 

Kyu Gunto "combat" swords will have traditional blades or oil tempered "Murata-To" type blades with Habaki like this one:

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Ofek,

 

Terminology in our collecting world is a bit of a mash-up. "Kyu-gunto" simply means "Old army sword" where "Shingunto" means "New army sword."! So using the terms of WWII, anything prior to the shingunto is a kyugunto.

 

Dawson called the 2-ring 1875 version a Type 8; and the single-ring 1886 version a Type 19. So this one is the Type 19, kyugunto. Pics don't show the backstrap well, but it appears to be company grade.

[Bridges]

Does anyone have examples of fake Japanese parade swords? There are 0 examples of faked type 19s on the internet. With the low sale price of type 19s, I doubt there are as many fakes on the market as other types but I would be interested in seeing a fake to help sharpen my senses.

[lonely panet]

11 hours ago, Bridges said:

Does anyone have examples of fake Japanese parade swords? There are 0 examples of faked type 19s on the internet. With the low sale price of type 19s, I doubt there are as many fakes on the market as other types but I would be interested in seeing a fake to help sharpen my senses.

there is very little interest in the type 19 kyu dress sword,  thats why there very few fakes.  

[Bruce Pennington]

I know I've seen one or two really bad imitations, but I've been unable to find them in the search.  Like Hamish said, the 19s don't command the higher prices like the other swords, so they aren't as tempting a target for the fakers.

[Bridges]

I’ll be honest, my 5th dress sword will be coming in a few weeks and the variation between type 19s is astounding. Whether it is an army or police model, standard machined blade or war trophy that’s been mounted into the fittings, various mon, different metals used for the hilt, blade length, with Bo-hi and without, differing materials used for grip, rank on the backstrap, or occupied territory 19s, i  want to procure a fake type 19 if possible. The variation alone could make for a great small read. I may start compiling material.

[DTM72]

24 minutes ago, Bridges said:

I’ll be honest, my 5th dress sword will be coming in a few weeks and the variation between type 19s is astounding. Whether it is an army or police model, standard machined blade or war trophy that’s been mounted into the fittings, various mon, different metals used for the hilt, blade length, with Bo-hi and without, differing materials used for grip, rank on the backstrap, or occupied territory 19s, i  want to procure a fake type 19 if possible. The variation alone could make for a great small read. I may start compiling material.

I have never seen a replica Type 8 or 19 parade saber, but I have seen a reproduction Type 19 katana. 

https://www.by-the-sword.com/p-43242-russo-Japanese-kyu-gunto-army-sword.aspx

[Bridges]

Hey Dan, I’ve also seen these reproduction type 8/19s and even a type 32 at Kult of Athena but never a true, Japanese type 19 parade sword reproduction at any of these sites

[lonely panet]

On 12/22/2022 at 5:19 AM, DTM72 said:

I have never seen a replica Type 8 or 19 parade saber, but I have seen a reproduction Type 19 katana. 

https://www.by-the-sword.com/p-43242-russo-Japanese-kyu-gunto-army-sword.aspx

most members here cant correctly ID a type 8 over a type 19, so this would give you a good idea as to the popularity of this model.

so it makes no fiscal sense to try and fake them

[Bridges]

Update with pics:

In my endeavor of hunting for parade swords I have found 2 separate examples that are raising red flags and are either fake OR Chinese copies. I have checked Dawsons and and Fuller but no info is contained to explain these hilts. Let me preface this by saying, while almost all of my parade swords have brass back straps/hilts, I do have one that appears copper alloy in nature (which may point to further variations) but for now, I would like you to observe the odd “sand” in this metal, the sloppiness of the Sakura engraving and the poor overall quality. The type 8 handle has not been peened either, everything is wrong. These are two totally different blades with similar sandy accents. Let me know if you think these blades are real, I’m am very suspicious based off of my personal collection and information in the books.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Agree that the first one looks fake.  Hard to say about the second based on that single photo.

[Bridges]

@Bruce Pennington check out the “white” spots and the wood grip instead of Buffalo horn. I have heard that they used wood on the type 19 colony swords in Taiwan but this lacks the Taiwan designation. I read that somewhere a month ago so I could be wrong as I can’t recall my reference point. These swords are not shipping from China. They’re actually in some rural parts of the US. I would like to have a fake but both sellers are asking around 600 USD for these things…

[Bruce Pennington]

I don’t think this one is fake. But $600 is too high. They sell for around 450.

[Bridges]

Found another interesting piece for y’all’s consideration. Below you will see what is clearly a type 19 copy. This is not a Manchukuoan type 19. The hilt has 3 cherry blossoms going straight across the hilt instead of 4 that are separated by a border. The acid etching for the hamon is too high. The Bo-hi starts way to far away from where the habaki should be but is not present. The manchukuoan flags are not present but flags with what I believe are single, suns. A 20 stamen plum blossom is also present. A large, sun is present on the hilt that is not accompanied on manchukuoan types which I am assuming is Chinese. My question is, I did not think the Chinese made a copy of the type 19?! This is clearly a jab at the general parade sword as you can see the turtle shell grip.

[Seth]

@Bridges Noah, what eBay seller are you frequenting with these if you don't mind me asking. It seems like they are all coming from the same place?

[Bridges]

4 minutes ago, Seth said:

@Bridges Noah, what eBay seller are you frequenting with these if you don't mind me asking. It seems like they are all coming from the same place?

Hey Seth, they’re different sellers. I have just been going through different eBay categories. The above one you see is jacky1314us the sandy looking type 19 is stephaniemic and the sandy type 8 would be pakomor-70. What I do is I search in Asian antiques starting with Japan, then China (for Manchukuoan or other colony variants). Next I go to collectibles>militaria. Then I go through every category, Indian wars and after (I do this as I am going through the time period not necessarily the war the category is labeled, I have had great success with this). I’ll also frequent other poorly labeled categories in eBay that no one ever goes to to see if a sword has been placed in the wrong category. eBay sellers are terrible at titling swords. I bought a nice gunto with traditional blade in it from the Russo-Japanese war that was simply labeled Russian Japanese War sword, the bid didn’t go over 330 USD. I’ve also picked some type 19s up labeled “WWII military sword” and have even laughably seen some type 19s labeled antique Japanese military Katana. The parody is hilarious but the reward of finding these pieces is worth it. That one I just mentioned that I purchased has a mon on it that the seller didn’t even noticed and I purchased the 19 for $150. All this to say, out of the 70ish type 19s I have seen in the past month, the only obvious fakes I have seen are posted in here. So far it has been 2, maybe 3.

[Bruce Pennington]

Looks fake to me. But I don’t study these. My gut feel was that the swords made for the different territories, like Manchuria, were made by the Japanese. If that is true, then this is obviously a fake. If the swords were made in the other territories, Manchuria, Taiwan, etc., then this could possibly be just a poorly made Manchurian Sword.

 

But I clearly don’t know enough about these to judge. Just looks fake to me though.

[Bridges]

It gets better Bruce, seller is asking 600 USD 😂

[Bridges]

Here is another alleged type 19, note the ray skin handle in place of the horn handle. Also, the appearance of age and rust but tight gold rope wire wrap? Wire is too thick compared to counterparts. The cherry blossom lacks detail and looks like a generic attempt at an original. No scroll work on the top of the hilt where the hilt sweeps up. Overall, the engraving is poor, my bet is a Chinese fake, thoughts?

[Bruce Pennington]

Icky!  I think you're right on this one.

[lonely panet]

i think you guys need to stop guessing.  if you want to have a comprehensive understanding of the levels and quality of the type 19 kyu dress sword.

stop shopping by pictures,  bruce your a shocker for it. buy 20 or so dress swords of different levels of quality.  it was a cottage industery.

 

there was 100s of small shops making theres over the years in Japan,  they were worn more then combat swords. so they come in many levels of quality. so thats a window approx 1880 to 1945. so approx 40 years of service.  thats on par with the humble type 32.

 

this is good example of a original dress sword.  its intact,  complete yet be it looked like being cleaned with brasso.

 

the most obvious hint is just look at the crome plating. its way to expensive to have done or to age.

 

Bridges

learn for your experances, not others.  if you want knowledge earn it by buying, studing and "catch and release of sword". studing swords from pictures is like trying to learn sex for the first time from reading the karma sutras.

 

its not a expensive area to enjoy,  prob the cheapest area in military swords

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[Bridges]

@lonely panet, I am not guessing panet. You should be aware that the only 2 exceptions and I mean ONLY exception for a true, type 19 Japanese parade saber to have samegawa is to either be 1. police superintendent type 19 which this saber is NOT due to the 10 leaf cherry blossom and no imperial sun on the backstrap and 2. A custom ordered type 19 which is VERY rare as the Japanese army uniform regulations specify that commissioned officer below General would have black Buffalo horn grip.  My opinion on this being a fake is not uninformed nor is it “guessing” as you suggest. If you examine the engraving of the cherry blossom you should see that the engraving is poor, almost weak similar to the Chinese parade version of the plum blossom. Furthermore, the braid on this handle is TIGHT. If you make a case that the cherry blossom engraving is weak due to this blade being an “early model” or a model “heavily used” than that braid should be fraying off the handle. Instead, the gold gild on the braid is bright and uncorroded despite the blade and scabbard being in beyond poor condition. You should ask yourself why the handle does not match the blade. There is nothing wrong with using pictures to examine swords. I understand I am new to militaria but, I am making an effort. I have purchased 8, type 19 parade sabers in the past 2 months. The pictures reflect exactly what I received. Holding it in my hand is nice, but my determination would be no different due to well taken pictures by the seller. I don’t say this in arrogance but respectfully that my opinion on this type 19 being fake is not baseless nor on others opinions. I appreciate @Bruce Pennington for responding, we should all work together building this art up. As I foresee the militaria section of NHMB growing exponentially in the coming years.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

1 hour ago, lonely panet said:

levels and quality of the type 19

And this is why I always defer to you as the Type 8/19 King!

 

But doesn't it bother you that there are no notches in the tips of the sakura leaves?  The tips are round like plum blossoms, which is commonly found on Chinese fakes, because they used plums not cherries in their militaria.

[lonely panet]

19 minutes ago, Bridges said:

@lonely panet, I am not guessing panet. You should be aware that the only 2 exceptions and I mean ONLY exception for a true, type 19 Japanese parade saber to have samegawa is to either be 1. police superintendent type 19 which this saber is NOT due to the 10 leaf cherry blossom and no imperial sun on the backstrap and 2. A custom ordered type 19 which is VERY rare as the Japanese army uniform regulations specify that commissioned officer below General would have black Buffalo horn grip.  My opinion on this being a fake is not uninformed nor is it “guessing” as you suggest. If you examine the engraving of the cherry blossom you should see that the engraving is poor, almost weak similar to the Chinese parade version of the plum blossom. Furthermore, the braid on this handle is TIGHT. If you make a case that the cherry blossom engraving is weak due to this blade being an “early model” or a model “heavily used” than that braid should be fraying off the handle. Instead, the gold gild on the braid is bright and uncorroded despite the blade and scabbard being in beyond poor condition. You should ask yourself why the handle does not match the blade. There is nothing wrong with using pictures to examine swords. I understand I am new to militaria but, I am making an effort. I have purchased 8, type 19 parade sabers in the past 2 months. The pictures reflect exactly what I received. Holding it in my hand is nice, but my determination would be no different due to well taken pictures by the seller. I don’t say this in arrogance but respectfully that my opinion on this type 19 being fake is not baseless nor on others opinions. I appreciate @Bruce Pennington for responding, we should all work together building this art up. As I foresee the militaria section of NHMB growing exponentially in the coming years.

 

your clearly new and enthusiastic,  that s why im not going to call you  a idiot for debabting.  maybe for not listeneing and learning tho. but im not going to waste my time trying to explain or correct all the uneducated and unexperanced opinion you have timely written down. ill let Bruce try and help you, as just about all the information on type 19s and 8s might have come from my collection.

 

and heres just 1 sword to poke holes in everything you said,  its not a feild grade and yet it sports a buffilo grip,  it has plum blossum and is Japanese, "not the mythical chinese crap peaple talk about"

 

and so on

[Bridges]

That’s a beautiful sword panet, but it by no means pokes holes in anything I said. You did not address the samegawa and your example clearly has Buffalo horn. Your example has very nice, and clear engraving on the hilt, the fake does not and actually lacks engraving on some parts entirely. Pics below. The braid on yours is nice and thin, the braid on the fake is thick. Your cherry blossom is nice and crisp, the fake is crude and ugly. Notice how your leaves connect tightly to each other. The fakes leaves have space actually between each other. Lastly, if I play devil’s advocate and say it is authentic, why does the wear on the handle not match the wear on the blade/scabbard?!? None of this adds up.

[PNSSHOGUN]

The chrome on the Kyu Gunto saya is prone to deteriorating, any minor damage can cause rust to quickly form under the chrome and spread along the saya. This rust can happen at any time and is not a reliable indicator of wear or authenticity.