sz_waldmann Posted May 14, 2019 Report Posted May 14, 2019 Hello, I would kindly ask for translation assistance with the paper of this wakizashi, the shirasaya and the kogatana mei, if it is not too much asking. I know this is a rather big request, I am thankful for any help I can get, thanks, Szabolcs Hungary Quote
Bazza Posted May 14, 2019 Report Posted May 14, 2019 Blade is attributed to ECHIZEN KANENAKA on the paper and are the first four characters on the shirasaya. The remaining characters on the shirasaya constitute the length in shaku, sun, bu and ri (?) and for your exercise I'll leave the numbers for you to work out :>). The first long row on the paper is the same as the shirasaya with the addition of "1 wakizashi" and "mumei". The rest of the paper is I think "proforma stuff" and another member probably has an appropriate website off the top of their head for that. BaZZa. aka Barry Thomas. Quote
ROKUJURO Posted May 14, 2019 Report Posted May 14, 2019 KOGATANA seems to be signed MITSURO (?) KANEUJI Quote
Ray Singer Posted May 14, 2019 Report Posted May 14, 2019 Kogatana mei is Shizu Saburo Kaneuji. Quote
sz_waldmann Posted May 14, 2019 Author Report Posted May 14, 2019 Thank you all! I am afraid i don’t even know where to start with the numbers Is this kanji? Also, on the bottom of the shirasaya, does it say anything? Name of polisher or something? Thanks Szab Quote
Bazza Posted May 14, 2019 Report Posted May 14, 2019 Thank you all! I am afraid i don’t even know where to start with the numbers Is this kanji? Also, on the bottom of the shirasaya, does it say anything? Name of polisher or something? Thanks Szab Oh, sorry, I didn't scroll down far enough. At the bottom of the shirasaya will be information about the appraiser and his KAO (identifying "flourish" - a signature of a sort). This stuff is way above my pay grade and one of our more erudite members might be moved to have a crack at it. BaZZa. Quote
uwe Posted May 14, 2019 Report Posted May 14, 2019 Thank you all! I am afraid i don’t even know where to start with the numbers Is this kanji? ........ Szab In your case: 一 (1) 三 (3) 五 (5) Following the 長 (for length) after the smith, mentioned in parentheses.... Hint: 尺 = shaku 寸 = sun 分 = bu 厘 = rin Good luck Quote
sz_waldmann Posted May 15, 2019 Author Report Posted May 15, 2019 Ahha! I got it figured out. So this is 1 shaku 3 sun 5 bu 5 rin Cool Now for further learning. How do you guys TYPE Japanese letters, and what kind of letters are these? Kanji? Do you have some Japanese keyboard installed, or is this some online tool you are using? How would I type in ECHIZEN KANENAKA in Japanese letters? thank you for your patiece, SZAB 1 Quote
Shugyosha Posted May 15, 2019 Report Posted May 15, 2019 Hi Szab, They are kanji. If you use Word for Windows, you can install the software that converts the keyboard to enable you to type in Japanese. Alternatively, you can buy a keyboard with a combination of the roman letters and hiragana/ katakana that makes life a little easier if you have the software installed - with a normal keyboard you need to know which key gives you which syllable and I can never remember this. With kanji, there is a function that enables you to select from a list based on pronunciation IIRC. For most day to day stuff, I tend to adopt a copy and paste approach: to give you the information you were looking for I would have gone to the "research" link in the bar at the top of the page, chosen "kanji pages", "nenki and kuni" and copied the characters for Echizen from the kuni section and then opened the "Nihonto compendium" link and picked out the kanji for "Kane" and "Naka" which are in the section that lists the kanji used in smiths' names. Quote
sz_waldmann Posted May 15, 2019 Author Report Posted May 15, 2019 Hi, One final push please. I am really doing my homework. I am trying to figure out the DATE on the origami (see starting post). Somebody check me please. is it: Sho wa 5-10 (50) year 4 month 10-3 (13) day? So the 50th year of Showa 13. of April? 13.04.1975?thanks, SZAB 2 Quote
Nobody Posted May 15, 2019 Report Posted May 15, 2019 ....................... Sho wa 5-10 (50) year 4 month 10-3 (13) day? So the 50th year of Showa 13. of April? 13.04.1975? That is correct! 1 Quote
sz_waldmann Posted May 15, 2019 Author Report Posted May 15, 2019 Wow now this is a feeling! Time to join some Japanese language course.... Szab 1 Quote
sz_waldmann Posted May 15, 2019 Author Report Posted May 15, 2019 Hm, one thing bugs me. The kogatana has the mei Shizu Saburo Kaneuji... I found one Kaneuji who was the student of masamune and a lot of Kaneujis in the nihonto kanji pages swordsmith database,. One of them is more or less the contemporary of the maker of the Wakizashi, which would make sense, who is a chu saku and it says: Shinto, Mino no kuni (Genroku:1688)Chu saku noshu ogaki ju shizu saburo kaneuji I am willing to bet I do not own a kogatana made by masamune's student :D So I think "my" Shizu Saburo Kaneuji is the one above. Now what do those things mean? "Mino no kuni" and "noshu ogaki ju"? Szab Quote
Shugyosha Posted May 15, 2019 Report Posted May 15, 2019 Hi Szab, "Mino no kuni" - the province of Mino. "Noshu Ogaki ju" - Noshu is also Mino province - in order to avoid confusion and make sword stuff really easy for westerners, there are two ways of writing the names of the provinces - in this case the "No" kanji appears in both versions. It means that he was living at Ogaki, in Mino. Have a look at the link here: http://www.jssus.org/nkp/kanji_for_provinces.html From Markus Sesko's book: KANEUJI (兼氏), Genroku (元禄, 1688-1704), Mino – “Shizu Saburō Kaneuji” (志津三郎兼氏), “Nōshū Ōgaki-jū Shizu Saburō Kaneuji” (濃州大垣住志津三郎兼氏), real name Tōyama Tō´emon (遠山藤右衛門), he lived in Ōgaki (大垣) As far as kogatana go, for some reason their makers think that it's a great idea to put the name of a really famous smith on the blade. In reality it might not actually have been made by either the guy working in the 17th century (though this is the better bet) nor the student of Masamune, but by someone who intended to allude to it being made by the student of Masamune. Sorry, not a great explanation - it's a bit like paying homage to rather than a forgery. Quote
sz_waldmann Posted May 15, 2019 Author Report Posted May 15, 2019 Cool, leraned a lot, thanks! Szab Quote
Brian Posted May 15, 2019 Report Posted May 15, 2019 Many/most kogatana feature a famous name. More like homage or dedication.You can safely ignore the name in this case. Quote
Brian Posted May 15, 2019 Report Posted May 15, 2019 Hmmmm...Thanks Ray. Looks like I may have to retract my statement Does it appear forged and with a hamon? Quote
uwe Posted May 15, 2019 Report Posted May 15, 2019 From Sesko. kaneuji.png That was new to me.... Thanks Ray! Quote
Shugyosha Posted May 16, 2019 Report Posted May 16, 2019 That was new to me.... Thanks Ray! Me too...humble pie eaten. Quote
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