Request professional opinion - blade with hadaka-yaki

[Hoshi]

Let's break down those broad strokes. 

 

Hitatsura was the death rattle of Soshu. During the late soshu time, something remarkable happened: Hasebe, Akihiro, and other great Soshu smiths transitioned to Hitatsura. A style which is functionally unsound. Why move from the 'top product' which made the glory of the Soshu towards a high-risk innovation which looks good, but is not structurally sound?

• We know it's not a sharp skill drop-off since Hasebe and Akihiro have some great work in classic Soshu
• We know later work features more Hitatsura than early work
• We know that the classic Soshu products had a lot of demand because the predecessor had established a solid reputation

There aren't many explanations and we will never know the truth, but the best explanation I have encountered is that they simply ran out of the best ingredient with the metallurgic qualities used during the Apex of Soshu. Thus, they needed to source elsewhere, and their methods - applied to this new material - did not yield satisfactory results. The school would simply die off if nothing was done and they attempted a last resort innovation: Hitatsura. This is supported by the fact that if you ask Soshu experts, they will tell you that the steel used in Hitatsura appears, superficially at least, of lesser quality. It is simply less prone to creating activity and lacks the glimmer of the top stuff. The rest is history and the school peters off into oblivion. 

 

As for the wide O-Choji. These swords broke a lot. We can see that the top Bizen Smith following Ichimonji slowly reduced the extend of the choji midare and implemented other methods to increase the durability of these swords. You find this in the works from Nagamitsu to Kagemitsu. The transition from flamboyance to a near suguha choji is not just a drift in style, but an attempt to improve structural soundness. Fukuoka Choji midare may be the pinnacle of flamboyance and activity, but functionally it was dubious. 

 

Now we can speculate as to why that was. One possibility is that the Ichi smiths did not optimize for the warrior customer of the time as much as they did for the tastes of Gotoba. And unlike the former customer, he certainly didn't swing these blades on Kabuto to appreciate them. As an analogy, think about modern architects who optimize for prize-winning rather than for customer well-being. When the judge is sensitive to a dimension which is uncorrelated to the function of the product, you see these departures. 

[Guest Rayhan]

I agree on Nagamitsu and the reason for taming the choji but that's about it.

 

I am not a blacksmith so i cannot comment on the steel used in Soshu blades of 600 years ago, however less activity in the Ji might be more a temperature issue than a steel issue when doing Hitatsura, perhaps a Soshu expert can help clarify?

[Hoshi]

I'd say it's a pretty good start.  

 

Let's compare perspectives: What's your theory on Hitatsura and the downfall of Soshu? 

[Vermithrax16]

3rd gen Tsunahiro worked in hitatsura and it's one of the most well done of the style IMO. Not my type of things, but it is catchy. Example:

https://www.nihonto.com/tsunahiro/

 

Yosozaemon Sukesada also dabbled, and did it well (Juyo sword):

https://yuhindo.com/yosozaemon-sukesada-3/

 

As to functionality? Well suguha is always best, so clearly not every sword make was purposed for absolute combat. 

[Ted Tenold]

Hitatsura killed Soshu. It was a high-risk innovation and it failed to convince its market. It’s not structurally sound at all.

 

I regard it as one of the corruptions which would soon follow in the Shinto Era.

 

Choji was an attempt at bling. It failed.

Hitatsura was an attempt a bling. It failed.

 

And then during peace time we have no more metrics of failure and things like drawing Mount Fuji in the Hamon suddenly become popular.

 

The other way to see it is that Wild Choji and Hitatsura were ahead of their time...

 

 

 

[Tom Darling]

Trust me, in a battle you won't win.

 

 

Tom D.

[Rivkin]

I thought basically all schools save for Bizen and to much lesser extent Shizu and maybe Uda died out in Oei for economical reasons. Simply nothing being ordered in provinces and Osafune dominating whatever little market remained.

 

Kirill R.

[Guest Rayhan]

I'd say it's a pretty good start.

 

Let's compare perspectives: What's your theory on Hitatsura and the downfall of Soshu?

Far better and more knowledgeable people have answered this question for us and i will only be repeating. In this case i will take a step back and let the rant on Soshu go.

[Hoshi]

As to functionality? Well suguha is always best, so clearly not every sword make was purposed for absolute combat. 

 

 

This remains an unanswered question and Suguha is a good guess. However, swords have areas which get more stress than others, statistically, because they are the strike zones. A structural engineer would model the stress distribution given the shape and optimize the hamon based on this. It's an open question if the result is suguha, notare, ko-choji with plentiful ashi, etc. But it's going to be one of those. Definitely not wide Togareba, O-Choji, or Hitatsura. 

 

I thought basically all schools save for Bizen and to much lesser extent Shizu and maybe Uda died out in Oei for economical reasons. Simply nothing being ordered in provinces and Osafune dominating whatever little market remained.

 

 

Soshu is a short story with a sharp peak and a sudden decline. While the Muromachi crisis is certainly a contributing factor, it does not fit this data. Soshu to Sue-Soshu is simply too steep a fall in quality and occured too soon. By comparison, Bizen to Oei-Bizen is a far smoother transition. Both produced top quality products and Soshu had aquired a great reputation in Kamakura. Why would demand for luxury Soshu swords die off suddenly while it persisted in Oei-Bizen? We need to be a little critical here and think outside cudgel explanations. 

 

In my opinion, the key to understanding this lies in the stylistic transformation of the late hasebe/akihiro experiments in Hitatsura and why it was undertaken. 

[Surfson]

Ted, you spoke a volume with a single emoji.  Want to elaborate?  

[Ted Tenold]

Frankly, I would enjoy a lengthy friendly discourse on this, but I'm insanely busy, so I'll have a cuppa and try for a "10,000 words or less" post on the matter.  

 

I think the evolution of sword manufacture, the rise and fall of certain schools/traditions, and the success or failure of particular designs, is a matter of greater intracacy than ascribing a hypothesis of superficial aesthetics.  However I will offer the following thoughts for contemplation;

 

The Ichimonji schools, through it's origins and development of various branches as accepted by today's scholarship, began in early Kamakura and continued through Nambokucho, a span of nearly 200 years.  Are we to believe that the smiths of this school, *and* the various branches, in assorted regions, continued working in a technique that produced inferior weapons, and then passed that technique on to their progeny so that they also could continue to make inferior weapons?  Weapons in which the survival of families, soldiers, citys, and political powers depended?  Also this methodology was held and or adopted to other subsequent schools that developed their own interpretations on the foundation technique and technology of Ichimonji.  

 

Are we also to believe that they were so flawed as weapons that they could not have earned the respect, admiration, and one could argue "obsession" of the major military rulers of Japan for the next several hundred years, *and* survive through the periods of massive and widespread warfare over the subsequent Sengokujidai, all the while being emmulated in design and technique by smiths in the Osafune school during the warring states period?  A cursory glance at the numbers shows that 544 Ichimonji Daito are designated as Juyo or better.  This is just the Ichimonji school and branches, surviving on their so-called "bling" for 800 years.  For the entirety of the Rai school with a strong majority of sugu based hamon (though Kuniyuki and Niji Kunitoshi have some pretty blingy choji examples also) hold 578 daito listed as Juyo or higher, and following Nambokucho, they also faded from existence, with no real smiths to emmulate them until arguably Nosada and then Umetada Myoju and Hizen Tadayoshi (mostly from Nidai on).  

 

Speaking of Osafune...  Large numbers of flamboyant chojiba in a total number Daitos, of Juyo or higher; 969.  Many of them made during the most tumultuous times of warfare, still ubu, or slightly suriage/machiokuri, and still extant, some with big ol' cuts on them testing their inferior design....repeatedly.  

 

Moving to Soshu;  

 

Hitatsura in it's iconic imagery arrives when Akihiro and Hiromitsu appear on the scene, and in a far lesser emphasized form a little earlier with Hasebe.  Saying that hitatsura killed Soshu is folly.  First, Akihiro has no daito to reference and shows only wakizashi and tanto, so we don't know if any daito by him were in hitatsura or not, or if he even made any daito at all.  Hiromitsu also has mostly wakizashi and tanto, most in varied emphasis of hitatsura, but also has one signed tachi.  Now this tachi demonstrates a very important lesson we must all remember;  comparing a smiths works in shoto with their works in daito, will most generally show a vast difference in approaches to forging and heat treating.  Why?  Because they knew what they were making, it's purpose, and what it would be subjected to.  Hiromoitsu's singular and signed tachi is not in the flamboyant thick hitatsura, but rather in a calmer more relieved interpretation, with far less muneyaki, tobiyaki, and yubashiri.  So the "stiffening" features are far less emphasized, because it's so much longer and subjected to different stresses and application than a wakizashi would be.  These second period Nambokucho wakizashi are very thin, made so to enable a thinner cutting edge desired in this particular period of warfare.  The aesthetic of hitatsura was incidental to the need of stiffening a blade with a thinner cross-sectional mass.  However in the Hiromitsu tachi, flexibility for it's mass and length was required and thus given due consideration with far less hardening in the overall structure.  

 

Hitastura's affect on Soshu was not a matter of "video killed the radio star".  Soshu fell victim to political, social, and economic changes and simply could not survive the turbulence of the Nambokucho era after the fall of the Kamakura shogunate.  Sadamune probably tried to keep the momentum with his move back to Omi (if that alternative holds true) and through his student, Kanro Toshinaga (again, if), but sadly it was not to be.

 

I do agree however, that a daito made in big, ostentatious, radical, hitsatura would garner some suspicion in my own mind for comparitive durability, but if I knew the maker, and he was of a good reputation, and he knew what I wanted and needed, I would then have to trust that he would know how to make it.  After all, the first smith to hand a single edged curved blade to his customer that was tired of breaking Chokutos probably received a very strange and skeptical reaction. 

[Guest Rayhan]

Thank you Ted, much appreciated 

[Hoshi]

We're talking across each other and there is more we agree on that meets the eye. The next step of this conversation will turn into a dissertation that I don't have time to give proper justice to at the moment. 

 

I did employ provocative language to advance a position. I'm glad that stimulated a debate (and triggered some of you ). The fall of Soshu is a key topic in the study of Nihonto and it deserves far more attention than it currently garners. 

 

Naturally, advancing a hypothesis beyond the one "in the books" requires a lot of evidence and study to be considered competitive. The next step is comparing dates and places of work, continuity in skill transfer, local economic conditions in the transition to Muromachi and metallurgic comparison of steel from Hitatsura work. It's enough work to write a thesis. 

 

But this is a hobby and not a PhD, so I'll opt for discussing this - with drinks - at the upcoming DTI. 

[Tom Darling]

Hi Ted,

 

Soshu Ju Akihiro, did make a very famous kokuho daito  from the kagoshima Shrine as reported in the Saga magazine August 1966. Early Soshu blades were not hitatsura (hard all over) later Soshu were. The beginning of the Kamakura style swords were made (wider) to replace the slender tachi, against the Mongol invaders was the main purpose of making more powerful swords. Peace. Thank you.

 

Tom D.

[Jason N]

 

Friends,

I'm totally unaware of the issue of Japanese swords. However, I dream long enough to buy one.

Today I found one who charmed me. Hamon has an unconventional technique and the sword looks beautiful.

However, I would like to hear the opinion of experienced people

Thank you in advance for your feedback

If you dream of owning a Nihonto, there are many entry level choices at 1/4 of the price with Koshirae. If 10K is a trivial sum to you, and Hitatsura is your thing, I’d say go for it. We like what we like.

[Brano]

thank you Jason

My knowledge is at the very beginning. I was charmed by the blade design

I communicated intensively with some members

I finally decided on this piece

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/16598-long-koto-signed-bizen-tachi-for-sale/

Now I'm just looking forward to his arrival

[Jason N]

thank you Jason

My knowledge is at the very beginning. I was charmed by the blade design

I communicated intensively with some members

I finally decided on this piece

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/16598-long-koto-signed-bizen-tachi-for-sale/

Now I'm just looking forward to his arrival

Wow! That’s one nice piece for a starter. Do you have children? I am available for adoption. Just don’t forget to add me to your will. ????

[16k]

thank you Jason

My knowledge is at the very beginning. I was charmed by the blade design

I communicated intensively with some members

I finally decided on this piece

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/16598-long-koto-signed-bizen-tachi-for-sale/

Now I'm just looking forward to his arrival

Wow, that’s a great blade and a great choice, way above my pay grade, but a real eye catcher! Congrats!

[lovelight]

 

thank you Jason

My knowledge is at the very beginning. I was charmed by the blade design

I communicated intensively with some members

I finally decided on this piece

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/16598-long-koto-signed-bizen-tachi-for-sale/

Now I'm just looking forward to his arrival

 

 

Congrats. That's quite the starter item. If you feel that you will continue with this hobby, consider going to Tokyo in November for Dai Token Ichi.  The number of swords and sword related items in one place is breathtaking.  Airfare and hotel is a relatively small investment for the ability to see so many items in person.

[Brano]

thank you guys 

I'm really glad your rating is better than my first choice

Dai Token Ichi would certainly be interesting ( but I would have to take my mentor with me and I'm not sure what Kirill would say )

[Shugyosha]

 

thank you guys 

I'm really glad your rating is better than my first choice

Dai Token Ichi would certainly be interesting ( but I would have to take my mentor with me and I'm not sure what Kirill would say )

 

 

If you're paying I'm available if Kirill can't make it. Obviously not all mentors are equal and your mileage may vary. 

 

That's a lovely blade and a great way to start a collection. 

[Brian]

Wow. An amazing start to your collection. Well done.

[Hoshi]

Good choice. This blade has utsuri, complex hamon with a conspicuous folding pattern. Bizen is a fantastic place to start your journey. 

[Brano]

Thank you Chris

Thank you Brian,

 

I enjoy your opinions. I believe I made a good decision

[vajo]

Congratulations Brano, a very good choice. I wish you almost fun and enjoyment with your purchase.

[Tom Darling]

Chris,

 

All your points are well appreciated. Would like to throw in, adding  horimonos were introduced to a peaceful (folks)  segment market. A true combat samurai sword nihonto, would be devoid of all horimono. Referring to Bo-hi I don't know, maybe, maybe not, keep them in the dark.  You can recognize a Bungo Yukihira by the kurikawa at ha-machi, ordered not for combat.  Peace.

 

Tom D.

[Jamie]

If hitatsura killed Soshu then I think it wouldn’t have been emulated in the years following.

 

This particular sword won an award and obviously the Smith has a very credible lineage. I don’t think the pics are outstanding but being that it won an award from the nbthk I’d think it’s probably a good sword.

You’ll enjoy it. Hitatsura most times is very active and you’ll put a lot of new words into memory studying this sword.

 

The bizen sword is a pretty damn good choice too. Utsuri being captured in pocs is rare so it must be prominent in this example.

[Hoshi]

Let's qualify this statement before it gets branded on my forehead for all eternity.

 

If hitatsura killed Soshu then I think it wouldn’t have been emulated in the years following.

 

• Emulation in Shinto period, which was a time of peace, is based on attractiveness not functionality. 
• Transition to Muromachi was a period of economical and socio-political turmoil for all sword schools. quantity over quality became an wartime necessity, which is the default hypothesis to explain decline everywhere. 

The additional contention is that the decline of Soshu is not just a decline in skill, but also one of access to specific types of iron ores which became accessible when its founders moved to kamakura. The hypothesis is that a loss of access to these raw materials forced last ditch innovations such as Hitatsura. Hitatsura is not structurally sound, especially not on a Daito. The underlying premise here is that raw materials had a lot to do with the technological transition from Yamashiro to Soshu methods.  

 

Then this brings us to Ted's contention:

• For Ted, Soshu Hitatsura was applied on thin shortswords, which was the style of the time, to make them sturdy. This gives the method a functional justification. The fact that there are no soshu daito (?) in Hitatsura is an indication that this style wasn't used on longswords.
• My stance is that even on a thin shortsword, random hardening will make it brittle compared to a more controlled, notare hardening pattern. This is compounded by the fact that these pieces were very thin. I contend Hitatsura was not a successful functional innovation. The lack of daito could indicate that a) they were never popular and/or b) they broke in great numbers. 

But this brings us to another great hole in knowledge which is the study of regional metallurgy. We have 'blackish' 'greyish' and 'bluish' steels widely documented as a Kantei point, but basically very little idea of why these faint hues occurred. We also have impressions from polishers of 'hard' Kamakura steel vs 'soft' Bizen steel. How much of these variations are due to ore processing vs the ore itself is a big looming question mark. 

 

In the shinto period once steel production became centralized all of this is lost. Variability in steel - and access to ore with specific qualities - is in my view a very understudied topic. 

[Tom Darling]

Hi Chris,

 

You nailed it. excellent!

 

 

Tom D.

[ChrisW]

I agree. This should all be documented and studied in greater depth. I feel the metallurgy has a lot to do with how styles fluctuated.