Request professional opinion - blade with hadaka-yaki

[Brano]

Friends,

I'm totally unaware of the issue of Japanese swords. However, I dream long enough to buy one.

Today I found one who charmed me. Hamon has an unconventional technique and the sword looks beautiful.

However, I would like to hear the opinion of experienced people

Thank you in advance for your feedback

[Brian]

Umm.......
What to say?...Hmm..... Who made this?
Hitatsura appeals to some, and others do not like it. I do not mind it, but this is done very.....oddly.
I cannot even see if the hamon is continuous or if it drops off in numerous places. Doesn't look very....controlled.
Like someone was deliberately trying to overdo it, and didn't really know what he was doing. I don't know, I really don't. It would be most important to make sure the hamon is complete. Where did you find this for sale? I hope it is Japanese. If so, then shinsakuto.

[vajo]

Sorry i can see much enough, to say anything.

[SAS]

Hitatsura, wildly uncontrolled, interesting art, but not for a practical sword. It reminds me of the patterns on my favorite eating reef fish, the bigeye. I can't read the mei.Blotched_Bigeye_Heteropriacanthus_cruentatus.width-1200.326af2d.jpg

[vajo]

If i must give an opinion that looks like a simon lee sword.

[Guest Rayhan]

https://www.touken-matsumoto.jp/eng/product_details_e.php?prod_no=KA-0190

 

Seller has a good reputation and it is a prize winning blade. Good luck on the purchase!

[vajo]

I don't like it. But others will rate it better.

 

For that price you get a highly rated gendaito like shigetsugu and others. Or older swords from different periods in top condition.

[Brano]

Thank you for your observations guys

It's a new sword, made 2017

Rayhan gave the right link 

 

https://www.touken-matsumoto.jp/eng/product_details_e.php?prod_no=KA-0190

 

Did I understand that it is not a good purchase for people who understand it?

[Guest Rayhan]

Its not that it is not a good purchase but Hitatsura is a specific taste for many collectors. If you like it that is what matters.

 

In terms of collecting the sword is Ubu, signed, dated, prize winning and will paper in the future.

 

Hitatsura really is one of those very specific aesthetic features as most of the blade is hardened in a random manner the collectors who are looking for form and function may set them aside as not collectable. Again a matter of taste.

 

In terms of age it is a young sword so if you wanted an older sword in Hitatsura you would aim at a Muromachi Soshu smith but again Muromachi Soshu was not their shining era unlike Kamakura and Nanbokucho. So effectively this is like a modern Utsushi of a Muromachi Soshu sword.

 

As it is healthy then all you need to decide is, do you like it? If you're after history then your budget can buy you more historic swords. If you're after these particular features then here you go.

 

Some Bizen swordsmiths also did it in beautiful patterns and the swords Sugata is remarkable:

 

https://yuhindo.com/yosozaemon-sukesada-3/

[16k]

I own a modern (Chinese) hitatsura sword like that that I paid $400. Its nice and very much like your example. Looks cool and showy, but I don’t know if I’d pay that much for a modern hitatsura sword.

 

I also own a Muromachi era Soshu hitatsura katana and if that’s your stuff, I’d strongly suggest getting one as this one as your example looks more like an art piece than a real sword. Also, hitatsura always (at l’est that’s my opinion) look better in picture than in hand.

[vajo]

Its not compareable with the sukesada Rayhan. The sukesada looks beautifull, but not that sword. Looks like a pimped Golf GTI from the 80s. If that sword wins a prize bei the NBTHK i don't wont to see the other swords from the competition.

[Brano]

Rayhan - I sincerely thank you

I'm not planning to do anything with him.

Yes, I like it very much. I can't judge the sword itself. I don't want to spend $ 10k for ... but

You're right - everyone likes something - and I like this piece

[Rivkin]

Two big negatives:

a. Dense itame without much expression - a bane of all modern production.

b. Hitatsura does not have internal activity and is done sort of nioi with ko-nie boundary. The boundary is very sharp (i.e. matching the dense itame) without much activity either.

 

Kirill R.

[16k]

Kiriil, not sure Brano knows enough to understand our specialized language!

[Brano]

I agree Vajo,

Sukesada is very nice.

I appreciate everyone's opinion.

It looks like I choose as a typical beginner

Many of the terms you use in the discussion I'm looking for on Google ...

I believe I will not need it once, but it will be a long way

[Brano]

16K

   

you're absolutely right

But I'm looking for it - hmm

[Guest Rayhan]

Its not compareable with the sukesada Rayhan. The sukesada looks beautifull, but not that sword. Looks like a pimped Golf GTI from the 80s. If that sword wins a prize bei the NBTHK i don't wont to see the other swords from the competition.

Let me make it super clear that no one was comparing a Juyo with a modern Hitatsura (don't even think it).

 

I was just showing an example of true Hitatsura genius that makes any collector stop and look twice.

 

Brano- if you're coming at it as a beginner and Hitatsura took your eye then maybe you should look at studying Koto Soshu den and see if those swords are also interesting for you.

[16k]

16K

you're absolutely right

But I'm looking for it - hmm

Brano, if I may suggest, buying a sword is a huge investment, not only because it is a large sum of money, but also because we tend to make mistakes easily.

 

With this sword, you’re looking at an expensive sword from the very start. Very often, the more we learn and know about swords, the more our tastes change and evolve. I know that if my first sword had been like that, I would have felt like Indiana Jones discovering the lost Ark. now, after about my 20+ years reading and looking at swords, my tastes have changed radically and I see more beauty in simple Suguha Hamon (straight temper line) than in any convoluted Hamon.

 

All this to say that you should read a few books, even beginners books first (John Yumoto’s book: the Samurai Sword is very, very outdated, but it has the benefit of being read fast and showing you around all the basic aspects of Japanese Swords), and then, don’t aim so high for a first sword. Even basic swords by barely known sword smiths often hide unimaginable beauty once you start knowing what to look for. Get a a starter sword, just be sure it’s in good polish and you’ll be bitten by the bug.

[Brano]

Jean-Pierre,

that is why I have opened this debate

I found something that enchanted me. And I wanted to know the opinion of experienced people

Maybe you are right that when I buy it, I will look at it differently for half a year and I will regret not deciding otherwise

My sword is reserved, but I guess I have something to think about at night

 

Brano, if I may suggest, buying a sword is a huge investment, not only because it is a large sum of money, but also because we tend to make mistakes easily.

With this sword, you’re looking at an expensive sword from the very start. Very often, the more we learn and know about swords, the more our tastes change and evolve. I know that if my first sword had been like that, I would have felt like Indiana Jones discovering the lost Ark. now, after about my 20+ years reading and looking at swords, my tastes have changed radically and I see more beauty in simple Suguha Hamon (straight temper line) than in any convoluted Hamon.

All this to say that you should read a few books, even beginners books first (John Yumoto’s book: the Samurai Sword is very, very outdated, but it has the benefit of being read fast and showing you around all the basic aspects of Japanese Swords), and then, don’t aim so high for a first sword. Even basic swords by barely known sword smiths often hide unimaginable beauty once you start knowing what to look for. Get a a starter sword, just be sure it’s in good polish and you’ll be bitten by the bug.

Jean-Pierre,

that is why I have opened this debate

I found something that enchanted me. And I wanted to know the opinion of experienced people

Maybe you are right that when I buy it, I will look at it differently for half a year and I will regret not deciding otherwise

My sword is reserved, but I guess I have something to think about at night

[ChrisW]

Is that core steel exposed all over it? It looks like it should fail spectacularly if it were to ever be used (hopefully that'll never ever happen). I get that its a purely art piece, but at their core, Japanese swords were meant to be utilitarian items. The samurai lived and died by his blade, like any other swordsman.

[Rivkin]

Kiriil, not sure Brano knows enough to understand our specialized language!

 

Sorry, I would restate:

 

Its a very bright blade that will impress beginner a lot.

Very few smiths today work with hitatsura and there are some interesting details here.

The choice of forging and tempering techniques is however quite basic and created a product that lacks depth, subtlety and long term appreciation. 

 

Kirill R.

[Ken-Hawaii]

I have an Owari-Seki wakizashi that my wife fell in love with:

 

I can appreciate this type of hitatsura because it's not overkill.

[raynor]

Bit off topic, but what would a sword forged like this bring to a battlefield? I cant imagine it would perform as well as a blade with say suguha both for cutting and blade integrity?

 

It does look like magic tho at first glance, art in steel.

[ChrisW]

@Ken, I can see that one very much still has enough steel on the spine to have structural flexibility. I just wonder about the one he showed us. With it being so wildly erratic, wouldn't it simple find a point where there's little flex and snap/crack through?

 

Regardless, it is a very pretty blade (at the original). Definitely a work of art.

[Hoshi]

No.

 

As kirill said, this is not a desirable modern sword because of the dense steel pattern and the inactive hamon.

 

This is bling to new eyes, I understand that. For this kind of money, you can get a better hitatsura sword which is 500 years old. Your preferences will change as you go deeper into this hobby.

[Guest Rayhan]

I haven't seen any excellent Muromachi Hitatsura for 1.2 million yen, any reference?

[Brano]

Thank you for a clearer explanation Kirill

It's my fault I don't understand the terminology, not yours

[Rivkin]

I think number one problem with trying to buy an old blade instead would be that hitatsura, even more so than other advanced Soshu techniques, prefers o-tanto, wakizashi format. About 10x times more risk that blade simply blows up compared to almost any other heat treatment pattern. A huge difficulty when making a truly long blade.

 

In ko-waki at 1.2 there is a myriad of choices, beginning with Oei Hasebe (one can even get Nambokucho Hasebe, but the condition will be an issue) or late Nambokucho Hiromitsu line (forgot the name, Motomitsu or something). At 2 we might enter lesser Hiromitsu or Akihiro blades.

On younger end, at 400-700k there will be Tsunahiros, Shimadas et al.

 

But any quality hitatsura in daito scale is probably going to be so rare one sees them once a year.

 

Kirill R.

[Hoshi]

Hitatsura killed Soshu. It was a high-risk innovation and it failed to convince its market. It’s not structurally sound at all.

 

I regard it as one of the corruptions which would soon follow in the Shinto Era.

 

Choji was an attempt at bling. It failed.

Hitatsura was an attempt a bling. It failed.

 

And then during peace time we have no more metrics of failure and things like drawing Mount Fuji in the Hamon suddenly become popular.

 

The other way to see it is that Wild Choji and Hitatsura were ahead of their time...

[Guest Rayhan]

I am not sure why we have shifted the thread to bashing Hitatsura but ok.

 

Blaming Hitatsura for the downfall of Soshu den is plain insulting to Soshu den in general, Soshu was a powerful wave that swept and revolutionized a nation in ideas, techniques and experimentation. It was unprecedented in all the techniques that came before it and what resulted was the inevitable amalgamation of techniques that led to dilution and too much experimentation led to its secrets being lost over time, a long time. What is clear is that the luminary founders and perfectors of Soshu den were never matched in skill.

 

Hitatsura can be observed very early on in subtle forms and as some have argued it was a mistake that was accepted and experimented with, this could be true considering the high temperature associated with Soshu. Shizu has some Hitatsura and for sure we see it in Hasebe, as Darcy points out in his Hasebe Kunishige write up:

 

"Kunishige, Hiromitsu and Akihiro specialized in a development known as hitatsura in which the hamon rose above the yakiba in a disconnected all over tempering style. This had its basis in the yubashiri activities started mostly by Soshu Yukimitsu. These formed clouds of nie but didn't coalesce into determined areas of hardening. We see them also in Go Yoshihiro, Masamune and Norishige specifically but it is a hallmark of Soshu work ever since Yukimitsu.

 

It's not until these mid generation smiths though that we see it turn into a conscious development, and it is now synonymous with their work. The vast majority of what they made and remains to us is in this flamboyant hitatsura style. Because of this, these blades are remarkably easy to kantei, as no other smiths that came after really got the hang of it. As we progress into the Muromachi period, the Soshu style hitatsura becomes less natural feeling and more clearly an imposed technique and starts to lose its charm. The Bizen smiths in the middle Muromachi, along with Muramasa, took up the hitatsura style from time to time and generally did a better job of it than the Soshu smiths of the middle 1500s, as their skill had fallen off remarkably from the time of the founding of the tradition."

 

It took more than a temper pattern to cause the dissolution of Soshu.

________________

 

"Choji was an attempt at bling. It failed. "

 

On the Choji hamon well, the Bizen fans must have had a chuckle when reading that comment seeing as how Kamakura Bizen was a pinacle of sword making and Choji featured prominently. I can't decide where to start refuting that comment so i won't.

 

______________________

 

"And then during peace time we have no more metrics of failure and things like drawing Mount Fuji in the Hamon suddenly become popular."

 

Sushinshi Masahide would beg to differ