Expensive fraud

[Hoshi]

This is an interesting case of a weaponized blade to pass as Koto

 

Attribution clearly states it's a top quality hizen-to, otherwise it would not have gotten first gen. It's ubu but additional holes have been drilled to make it pass as O-suriage. A signed top quality Hizen-to with good length of 74cm must have been expensive. I understand weaponizing shinshinto blades in this way, but even in the days Tadayoshi school swords were pricey (recall the Sesko article). 

 

On top of that, it's not exactly like taking Hankei and trying to pass it off as mainline Koto Soshu. Hankei and mainline Soshu can get very close and made for top quality fakes, but Hizen-to hada, hamon and shapes are quite distinctive. What was the fraudster trying to pass it on for?

 

https://tokka.biz/sword/tadayoshi17.html

 

Something doesn't make sense here...

[Shugyosha]

Chris,

 

I'm probably missing something here - it does seem cheap for a first generation tadayoshi, which given the length and hi might have been custom made, however, the seller says the sword has papered to NBTHK Hozon as a first generation Tadayoshi, (though there is no picture of the paper).

 

However, the description says that it is suriage (茎は磨上で) and which may be why there is no signature. 

 

I've never heard that Tokka is anything but a reputable dealer. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Considering current market opinions and trust of the NBTHK this is a rare opportunity to purchase a 1st Gen Tadayoshi with "gold standard" papers at a steal.

[16k]

Chris,

 

I'm probably missing something here - it does seem cheap for a first generation tadayoshi, which given the length and hi might have been custom made, however, the seller says the sword has papered to NBTHK Hozon as a first generation Tadayoshi, (though there is no picture of the paper).

 

However, the description says that it is suriage (茎は磨上で) and which may be why there is no signature. 

 

I've never heard that Tokka is anything but a reputable dealer.

 

Took me some time too to understand what Chris meant. I think I do. He’s not accusing Tokka of anything but rather says that a preceding owner added some holes to an ubu blade to make it look like an o-suriage Kotō blade. Which he says is stupid because Hizen Hada is very easily recognizable and 1st gen. Tadayoshi is and was already at the time, an expensive master.

[Brian]

Yeah, but first you have to prove it is ubu. It's not impossible it is o-suriage?

[paulb]

Also Shodai tadayoshi didnt make swords with classical Hizen konuka hada (at least not until late in his career) konuka hada really became the norm with the second generation and after. The first generation produced copies of earlier work styles.

[Ray Singer]

I am not sure I would consider this to be ubu. The nakago has clearly had its shape modified, even if the majority of the nakago is original. At minimum, the nakago-jiri has been truncated and the blade is suriage. The hamon also appears to run into the sabigiwa, as best as I can see from the photos. Also, as Paul said perfectly above, the textbook Hizen-to workstyle was established later. It was really Omi Daijo who refined the approach.

 

If in fact this was done with the intention to deceive, it is not a stretch to imagine someone would have been trying pass off the sword as a Rai, Awataguchi, etc (high-quality Yamashiro blade). Sword scholarship in the past was not at the level it is now. If the blade we are seeing now previously had something like a Hon'ami kinpun mei to Rai Kunitoshi, there may not have been many at that time who could say that it clearly looks like a Hizen-to.

[Hoshi]

Great information, thank you. 

 

Just to clarify: Tokka is reputable and in fact, they're one of the best value for the money dealers in Japan in my opinion. And yes, the fact that this is mumei cuts off 80% of the blade's value. Price-to-quality ratio on this one is very, very hard to beat. Tokka is awesome and once in a while they really dig up great things. 

 

Thank for the clarification regarding the distinctiveness of the Hizen school. I know very little about this school. I did not know that the style became distinctive with its rice-grain hada during the course of the second generation. I agree this could be passed off as an older Yamashiro blade... 

 

I do not think it is Suriage. At best it's Machi-Okuri, at worst it's dress up hadori to make the hamon appear to slip off. 

[Guest Rayhan]

The sword is definitely suriage and done badly. In any case if this is a Hizen sword and Mumei it is worth, absolutely zero. No matter what the condition on the nakago there is never any reason to own an edo mumei sword and especially not to bite the bait here on an 8k metal tsunagi. The dealer should know better than to sell this at such a price or even at all. Unless it is a typo and in that case...

[Prewar70]

Rayhan, your position is intriguing to me. I'm sure others agree with you too.  My own personal thoughts were, what a great opportunity to own a high quality blade made by one of the best at a price that's maybe doable.  And this is the part of sword collecting that is so interesting to me.  If the blade were removed from it's shirasaya and you knew it was made by 1st Tadayoshi and you admired that smith I think a person would marvel at it's beauty.  The hi look nicely cut, texture, curvature and almost 30 inches long.  What a beautiful sword, until you remove the handle....., or not.  It also makes me think of suriage katanas cut down to wakizashis.  The quality of the work is still there, and it was still made by the same smith.  And a person can buy this at a discount when compared to it's ubu brother.  So I'm not saying you're wrong, we all like what we like.  But to me and I'm sure others, this sword has a lot of value. Because of what's happened to it and it's discount, I bet it sells close to that amount.  I think there will always be people willing to provide it with a home for study and appreciation.

[lonely panet]

call me dumb.

 

I cant see the fraud. like a blind lepper. please  point it out to me

[ChrisW]

I think they're calling it gimei with a reshaped nakago to reinforce the deception of it being 1st gen. Tadayoshi, Hamfish.

[Ray Singer]

For my part, I'm only going as far as saying that it is suriage / o-suriage without taking the position that this was definitely intended to deceive.

[Ray Singer]

Another osuriage mumei attributed to the shodai.

 

https://www.aoijapan.net/katana-mumei-hizen-tadayoshi-1st-generation/

[ChrisW]

Ah. I wouldn't know personally. I was just attempting to interpret the conversation. It would take me decades to even begin to approach your guys' expertise.

[Vermithrax16]

Many Tadayoshi much longer than 29 inches or so? End of nakago is cut off, maybe machi moved up a bit. 

 

I don't think the seller is being anything but honest in their ad. They clearly state what the sword is and it has Hozon papers, so no confusion abut anything here. 

 

As far as unsigned Edo swords, I don't value them at zero, but it's a serious issue, at least to me. But it's also a way to get one's hands one a better sword for cheaper, only thing is when ready to move on from it, it probably get's a lot cheaper when you have to sell it

[vajo]

Nice long sword. I would take it but not for this price. ????

[16k]

Rayhan, your position is intriguing to me. I'm sure others agree with you too.  My own personal thoughts were, what a great opportunity to own a high quality blade made by one of the best at a price that's maybe doable.  And this is the part of sword collecting that is so interesting to me.  If the blade were removed from it's shirasaya and you knew it was made by 1st Tadayoshi and you admired that smith I think a person would marvel at it's beauty.  The hi look nicely cut, texture, curvature and almost 30 inches long.  What a beautiful sword, until you remove the handle....., or not.  It also makes me think of suriage katanas cut down to wakizashis.  The quality of the work is still there, and it was still made by the same smith.  And a person can buy this at a discount when compared to it's ubu brother.  So I'm not saying you're wrong, we all like what we like.  But to me and I'm sure others, this sword has a lot of value. Because of what's happened to it and it's discount, I bet it sells close to that amount.  I think there will always be people willing to provide it with a home for study and appreciation.

I wholeheartedly agree with this comment. Sometimes, mumei or Suriage swords are the only ones allowed if you’re on a budget. A mumei, suriage blade by a master may have lost some of its appeal, but still retains much of its beauty, so for me, o- suriage, suriage or mumei, and not looking at this with an investment point of view, it doesn’t matter so long as it’s in a state of polish that allows you to study it.

[paulb]

I think the intent here has become a little confused but the original post was not, as Chris stated, an attack on the current seller. It was asking if at some point in history someone had shortenned a Shodai Tadayoshi blade in an attempt to pass it off as an earlier work. (I hope I got that right Chris) Subesequent views revolve around whether it is a good or bad prurchase as a mumei sinto blade.four possibilities exist based on what we know of Shodai Tadayoshi:

1. It was made this way as a copy of an earlier work at the request of the buyer.

2. It was made this way by Tadayoshi as an outright fake. Although a number of smiths were known to do this Tadayoshi has no record of doing so, nor did he need to. His work was well appreciated and he worked exclusively for the Daimyo so I think this can be dismissed as a possibility.

3. Someone at a later date thought it would have greater sale value as suriage Rai or Enju blade than as a Hizen work.

4. Somehow the hilt was damaged and the blade needed to be fixed.

 

Regardless of which was the case (if any) you are faced with a mumei, possibly O-suriage shinto blade with Hozon papers to an important smith.

Rayhan's point is perfectly valid Under normal circumstances there is no justification for shortening a Shinto blade and if it is done it has has generally been done to deceive. Also for those for whom level of paper is the guiding factor as a mumei shinto work the Hozon paper is about as high as it can go.

However on the counter to that is you have a sword attributed to one of the best Shinto Smiths. From what can be seen I think it looks to be a good work and has been said above it is for sale at a fraction of the price a signed work would command. 

So as a potential buyer do you follow the published intelligence and ignore this as a shortened shinto blade? or do you look at it like the quality, accept it will never gain higher papers and may be more difficult to sell in the future as this potential market will be restricted, and buy it because you like it and as a blade represents better quality than you might normally be able to buy.

As always its up to the guy with the money in hand. We all have an idea of what we would do and all are equally valid.

[Shugyosha]

I think, given Tadayoshi's work period, it is just about possible that the sword was shortened as a result of battle damage but might have been done to make a long blade more manageable. It could also have been shortened with the intention to deceive, but it seems odd to shorten and cut the signature of a master swordsmith off an exceptionally sized blade. Why risk a large sum of money in the bank on a speculative move not guaranteed to succeed?

 

Whether or not the sword is worth purchasing depends on why it is purchased: if it is as speculation or investment then that would be risky as I think it is safe to assume that it will not paper any higher than Hozon. If you want a sword in your collection by an important sword smith, one of the best of the period who spanned the gap between the koto and shinto periods and are happy to weigh the possibility of some loss of money against many years' enjoyment of the blade, then it might work.

 

If I had money to spend on a sword right now I'd be giving it some serious consideration: it's something I could buy for love alone and without an eye on the bottom line.

[Bugyotsuji]

May not be the case here, but since no-one has mentioned it, here goes. Swords were often cut down after Haitorei to fit into military mounts from Meiji onwards.

[Gakusee]

This sword is already too long to have been substantially cut down. If it were 64cm, I would accept the arguments above about battle damage, cutting it to fit regulations etc. But at 74cm it is already at optimal length (for current use in Shinto and later times) and according to what the legislation allowed. At best, it might have been reshaped slightly (indeed the jiri looks odd) and machi okuri a bit but not significant. The more pertinent question is about the lack of mei but that remains speculation at best. Who did it and why remains a mystery. What seems clear from the two posts above is that these trade around 750-800k JPY and if you want to sell them back to a dealer, the dealer will at best offer 500-600k. However, both blades (the original post and the Aoi) seem like very good quality blades. Good hada and consistent hamon.

[Guest Rayhan]

I think all swords should be appreciated as an entire item, historical significance, provenance, artist, time period, quality against existing works of the same artist, physical attributes, etc.

 

In this case we will only know the artist if we go back 400 years to the time the artist willed it into existence and maybe then we can determine who made it from the Hizen school. Everything else is based on an attribution (by experts) who have kindly decided to give an unnamed sword the best possible value based on visual physical attributes as it stands today. So in the grand scheme of value, this edo sword only has its physical attributes to go by.

 

Removing the mei on a 1st generation Tadayoshi in any given period of time now or in the 17th century would be pointless as his name carried weight. So why do it? Shortening it to pass off a gimei, good quality sword as a koto blade maybe? The experts of today have said nay. No paper to see but we give the "reputable" seller the benefit of the doubt.

 

There are many, many excellent Hizen blades, signed and ubu by less famous hizen smiths that would be considered better as a collectors item than this if 8k is the budget.

 

At the end of the day saving for a first generation Tadayoshi/Tadahiro on perfect condition is far more attractive than 8k paper weight. This is speaking from having made these mistakes myself over the last 20 years

[Shugyosha]

Sorry Ray, but I can't resist - if Aoi Art are also selling suriage katana by this smith with Hozon papers, does that not make them disreputable also or indeed anyone who sells a similar sword? 

[Brian]

I don't agree with the worthlessness (relatively) of a suriage, o-suriage or mumei Edo sword. But want to make the point to John that I don't think Ray has said the seller is disreputable, only that the sword is (in his opinion) not sought after. A seller cannot be disreputable for selling something. Only for doing the actual work on something, intended to deceive.

[Guest Rayhan]

Sorry Ray, but I can't resist - if Aoi Art are also selling suriage katana by this smith with Hozon papers, does that not make them disreputable also or indeed anyone who sells a similar sword?

I think Aoi has already had its reputation set in stone. You know you can find good items and bad items at Aoi and they make no effort to portray themselves otherwise. Also, the package from Aoi includes koshirae and a clear copy of the paper is represented. I have spent a lot of tine with Aoi and in the end their stance is very clear, something for every budget.

 

Tokka has no koshirae and no papers to see. So we take their word for it, not worth the paper its printed on.

 

In both these cases profit is the game, as a buyer if we do not raise the bar and aim for better and better swords we forever remain targets for such deals. It is up to us as buyers to do justice to ourselves and our collections by raising the level of expectations. That in turn will add value to the sword markets and weed out the crap from the good and the good from the spectacular.

 

So as a seller both these cases are and were about profit. So both sellers are wrong depending on the standards of the collector or right depending on the standards of the collector. I know for a fact that in a dealers auction in Japan they would both have paid no more than 300k yen for these, max. Perhaps a bit of work on shinsa and polish (not high level polish). But that is game we are in. It never ends if you keep growing your internal database of quality. And if you have a high bar even in tokka or Aoi you will see the right swords come by. And you can buy them if you save and don't spend on crap.

 

The best deals will always be the ones you sit in front of and can physically see. So if you know the seller has a reputation for something for everyone, my advice is go to them, and ask for the stuff they have not publicised to budget conscious buyers in the west and to do that you have to know what you want and save an appropriate budget for that item.

[Jussi Ekholm]

To be honest if I look at the swords just by measurements assuming they are shortened I would immidiately think Nanbokuchō for both the Tokka & Aoi offerings. The shape & size are fitting for shortened blade from that period, I have documented measurements of a good bunch of them now.

 

I am not experienced enough to make conclusions about just the details on the blade but something like Enju or Rai that Ray & Paul mentioned earlier might be plausible guesses.

 

I think the interesting question would be if it is typical enough as a Tadayoshi sword that it would get Shodai Tadayoshi attribution again on the new try at shinsa, or would the attribution change to an older one?

[Vermithrax16]

74 cm O-suriage sword? Not sure why anyone would make that observation on this listing and think a koto sword.

[Guest Rayhan]

Its not that anyone here sees a koto sword it is what some lesser daimyo family or less knowledgeable person would see 100 to 300 years ago..."oh we were gifted a great koto blade".

 

We are beating a dead donkey here.

 

How is anyone seeing pure Enju or Rai as there is no connotation towards those schools in this sword. If anything we are looking at the emergence of Edo hada and the revolution taking place at that time and this is just fall out. Radical sword with no placement.

 

Either way. Not worth the asking price

[Rivkin]

Its hard to judge by these photographs. Its even hard to exactly determine which of Hizen styles is used.

But the better of Hizen blades in Soshu style are first class.

They are not uncommon with o-kissaki and cut down to the point of passing for Nambokucho ones.

https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/q283519169

 

I've seen some of them with Honami papers to either Sadamune or Masamune.

Personal feeling - modern attributions are reasonably solid, plus minus generation in Hizen. Same for Rai style, its relatively distinctive. Nosada can pass for genuine Rai, Hizen generally does not, too bright, too "glassy", distinctive hada.

 

All of the opinions presented are personal and erroneous.

 

Kirill R.