Railway Swords & Stamps

[PNSSHOGUN]

Most extraordinary, these are rare enough as it is but this one takes the cake. My only thought is similar to yours in that the sword was re-arsenaled for regular army use. The unusual aspect about this SMR mounts is they don't seem to use Mantetsu swords at all but regular Showato from Japan based smiths.

[Bruce Pennington]

1 hour ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

SMR mounts

John,

I made the same mistake a while back.  North China Railway, which is what this sword was from, is separate from SMR Mantetsu.  At some stage, SMR had overall control, but they were separate lines with different emblems.

[Jon MB]

Nice to add to the list of known swords from the North China Transportation Company, or as we like to call it, the North China Railway / NCR.

 

Good gateway to resources on the general NCR topic here:

https://digitalorientalist.com/2020/11/27/visualizing-north-china-under-Japanese-occupation-digitized-photos-of-the-north-china-railway-archive/

 

[BANGBANGSAN]

@Bruce Pennington @Kiipu

Check these out

 

[MarcoUdin]

A few of those Seikosha railway pocket watches sold at an auction not too long ago. I was going to bid on one of them but they quickly got bid up. Believe they sold ~1,000usd

[Rich S]

Curious, did those watches meet the US standards for railroad watches? Must have been lever set and stem wound and had other criteria. Had to be accurate to avoid collisions. I use to repair pocket watches and carried a Hamilton 992 most my adult life.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Seikosha made watches for Military & Navy from memory.

[MarcoUdin]

The other watch makers you'll see made for Japanese military are Longines, Ulysse Nardin, Stauffer, Cyma and Excelsior. Most of the other brands were private purchase or captured. Longines and Seiko are definitely the most common, I've only ever seen railway markings on Seiko watches though

[Bruce Pennington]

@BANGBANGSAN - what do the kanji say on that Mantetsu watch?

[BANGBANGSAN]

9 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

@BANGBANGSAN - what do the kanji say on that Mantetsu watch?

 哈鐵----(滿鐵）哈爾濱鐵路分局（ Mantetsu Railway ）Ha Er Bin substation

[Bruce Pennington]

Another NCR gunto, showa-stamped Kaneriki blade, from the John Plimpton collection, on sale by @mdiddy HERE.

 

After seeing the upside-down NCR logo on the nakago jiri, I looked at the other 2 on this thread, and they are all stamped that way.  Hm.  Seems like an odd practice to place the emblem upside-down, at least in mei conventional practices.  Might show some corresponding light onto the upside-down "M" stamp, seen as a "W". 

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

The Plimpton collection may fill in quite a few of our "never seen before" items!  Here's a Type 19 Japanese Railway emblem (item "i" on Dawson's chart):

 

 

[Ontario_Archaeology]

19 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

The Plimpton collection may fill in quite a few of our "never seen before" items!  Here's a Type 19 Japanese Railway emblem (item "i" on Dawson's chart):

 

 

Bruce this sword is in Dawsons. It really is one of a kind. 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

3 hours ago, Ontario_Archaeology said:

this sword is in Dawsons

Ah, missed that!  These reference books have SO much stuff that they have to be read more than once to actually see it all.  Of course, the first time I went through it, I didn't know anything at all, so I didn't know the significance of most of the stuff in there.

[BANGBANGSAN]

On 11/29/2021 at 10:26 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Another NCR gunto, showa-stamped Kaneriki blade, from the John Plimpton collection, on sale by @mdiddy HERE.

 

I like this sword.Unfortunately the Ishizuke 石突 is just for the standard Type 98 has no NCR logo, it would be very hard if it's not impossible to find the parts. These swords are all about the fitting，not so much for the blade. It's kind of like copper handle NCO without the correct scabbard, which will affect the value quite a bit.

 

 

 

[kyushukairu]

Not sword related, but in response to Trystan’s post of the railway ephemera. 
A stall at an antique fair in Tokyo with only Manchuria Railway items 

[Bruce Pennington]

6 hours ago, kyushukairu said:

railway ephemera. 

Thanks Kyle!  Cool display with even a helmet!

[Bruce Pennington]

Another Manchukuo Rail sword found by @tbonesullivan on this thread:

 

[BANGBANGSAN]

6 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Another Manchukuo Rail sword found by @tbonesullivan on this thread:

 

These railway swords it's all about fittings. This one only has the Railway logo on the drag,IMO it's not considered an official MNR sword. Maybe the scabbard is not original to the blade.

[tbonesullivan]

13 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

These railway swords it's all about fittings. This one only has the Railway logo on the drag,IMO it's not considered an official MNR sword. Maybe the scabbard is not original to the blade.

 

The scabbard does have a lock which is aligned correctly. But no way to say whether it wasn't swapped out at some point.

[BANGBANGSAN]

4 hours ago, tbonesullivan said:

 

The scabbard does have a lock which is aligned correctly. But no way to say whether it wasn't swapped out at some point.

I agree with you, we might never know when the scabbard was paired with the current blade.

My point is, if the railway sword handle has the logo, it is a railway sword, even if the scabbard drag was gone. But if another way around, it can only be identified as the scabbard of the railway sword instead of the whole rig.

[BANGBANGSAN]

23 hours ago, tbonesullivan said:

 

The scabbard does have a lock which is aligned correctly. But no way to say whether it wasn't swapped out at some point.

Hey David ,can you remove the handle and show us the both sides tang? It maybe an older blade .

[Ontario_Archaeology]

A possible 3rd railway official dress saber, unless this is the one from Dawson found on an ebay listing by St Croix Blades. I have the one from the Plimpton collection. 

[Bruce Pennington]

17 hours ago, Ontario_Archaeology said:

3rd railway official dress saber,

Thanks Matt!  Any chance of getting a clear shot of that emblem?  I'm pretty sure it's the JGR, Japanese Govt Railway, but there is a TGR, Taiwan Govt Railway that is almost identical, difference being that item in the center.

[Ontario_Archaeology]

Just now, Bruce Pennington said:

Thanks Matt!  Any chance of getting a clear shot of that emblem?  I'm pretty sure it's the JGR, Japanese Govt Railway, but there is a TGR, Taiwan Govt Railway that is almost identical, difference being that item in the center.

Ah you are right, this is the only picture I saw posted of that sword on the ebay listing. maybe we can @ St Croix Blades for more. 

[Bruce Pennington]

I went through his site and 9 pages of ebay with no luck.  @matthewbrice - do you have a link to this, or a close-up of the railway emblem?

[BANGBANGSAN]

@Bruce Pennington

Actually, it should be called JNR (Japanese National Railways) instead of JGR (Japanese Government Railways).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_National_Railways

 

[matthewbrice]

I can take a close-up photo of the emblem this week Bruce!

 

 

 

—Matt

[Bruce Pennington]

Here's a nice, clear shot of that JNR emblem, thanks to @matthewbrice:

[BANGBANGSAN]

@Bruce Pennington