Japanese Blade from Court

[Hoshi]

22 hours ago, Tom Darling said:

Not necessarily so.  When you have a very rare sword in acceptable condition for the period, it is a given, to be juyo and bypass, first level of shinsa.  You mentioned  showing your sword in full polish,  love to see it.  I hope that it does get juyo. Good luck.

 

You need TH before applying to Juyo. These are the rules. Exceptional sword or not. There was a point in the past where they would accept Hozon before Juyo, but times have changed. 

 

This should fly through Juyo (but you never know, strange things can happen, the machi okuri is of course the main issue here) and will sell on the Japanese market for 15M yen+ in a blink (pretty neat ROI right there haha). Japanese dealers LOVE Masayuki/Kiyomaro. They go fast and make good margins. There is a die-hard group of wealthy Kiyomaro collectors in Japan who unite every year at his tomb, and there is even a dealer specialised in his work. A Masayuki true daisho was sold by Iida last year for close to half a million dollars: https://iidakoendo.com/4947/. Pretty impressive ROI if you ask me. 

 

 

[Prewar70]

How many though are of this shape and a cutting test?   I think 15mm yen is conservative no?

[Promo]

James, there is a "brother blade" of nearly identical shape which is in Juyo #18, Darcy posted it in this thread here:

However, this one doesn't have a cutting test. I've asked for cutting test marked Masayuki/Kiyomaro blades a page earlier and came to a total of three others known with a cutting test, hence with mine there would then be a total of four known.

 

Markus additionally yesterday was so kind as to count the Juyo blades by Masayuki/Kiyomaro and came with the number of 72. Assuming Yas a page earlier in post #177 is correct with his "around 130 blades" for this smith, this puts the Juyo rate at 55,3%. This is not knowing how many of the non-Juyo blades by Masayuki/Kiyomaro were submitted to Juyo and failed. I don't know how this "Juyo rate" compares to other smiths and if such a comparison may at all be done though.

 

I can't add anything on the value, except that I'll some day need one for the insurance when it is back. But the ROI rate doesn't matter this much anyway since I'll be keeping it, this has not changed since the starting post. It might not be usual to start a Nihonto collection with a Masayuki, but I don't think it is wrong either.

[Brian]

I don't spend much time on WAF nowadays. I guess you were VERY lucky I was on there that day, and sent you here. Who knows how this would have ended otherwise.

[BIG]

Extraordinary Juyo rate. Naotane Juyo rate is around 1%, but in the last 9 shinsa there was only one Masayuki. So it seems the Japanese M/K market is quite empty, and western markets dito..

Naotane on the long hand will reach surly more than 100 Juyo with a 5 % rate minimum. His decades of making very good swords gives him in Japan a long lasting market..

On the other hand a Kiyomaro TJ Daisho, a Naotane TJ Katana and a Sa Yukihide TJ Katana. Der 

So Naotane is imho in his total LEBENSWERK the more important artist.

 

BEST

[Tom Darling]

On 5/30/2021 at 12:35 PM, Valric said:

 

You need TH before applying to Juyo. These are the rules. Exceptional sword or not. There was a point in the past where they would accept Hozon before Juyo, but times have changed. 

 

This should fly through Juyo (but you never know, strange things can happen, the machi okuri is of course the main issue here) and will sell on the Japanese market for 15M yen+ in a blink (pretty neat ROI right there haha). Japanese dealers LOVE Masayuki/Kiyomaro. They go fast and make good margins. There is a die-hard group of wealthy Kiyomaro collectors in Japan who unite every year at his tomb, and there is even a dealer specialised in his work. A Masayuki true daisho was sold by Iida last year for close to half a million dollars: https://iidakoendo.com/4947/. Pretty impressive ROI if you ask me. 

It has been done,  it skipped all levels of shinsa, and went directly to Juyo shinsa.  Afterwards, it was placed on exhibit in the NBTHK.   As for the Masayuki , making Tokenbetsu Hozon  is gratifying that it is shoshin, making Juyo is another story.  The  sugata (shape/style)  has nothing to do with it. Furthermore,  I doubt that finding a matching (shape) wakizashi  for a perfect daisho, is  not in  the cards.  Many ubu Masayuki don't make Juyo, nor does all other top kaji.

 

 

[Yasaka Azuma]

On 5/29/2021 at 10:47 PM, Yasaka Azuma said:

Kiyomaro Minamoto was known for low production, and as far as I have been told, he forged only around 130 swords in his lifetime. 

I'll paste the evidence I saw online.
”The highest price ever paid for a sword was 150 million yen for one made by Kiyomaro Minamoto, the most popular of the "Edo Sansaku" swordsmiths.

Kiyomaro Minamoto was a swordsmith active in the late Edo period, but he suddenly committed suicide at the age of 42, pessimistic about a concussion he had suffered from drinking heavily. He was known for his limited production, and is said to have forged only around 130 swords in his lifetime.

The value of works by such a master craftsman changes over time, and depending on the state of preservation, the value of a piece that once cost tens of millions of yen may drop to several million yen.”

https://nihontoukaitori-hikaku.info/column/marketprice/

[Gakusee]

Hi Yas, I am afraid that article is inaccurate when it comes to values of swords and highest amounts paid. One example most of us here on the board know of due to the publicity raised on NMB is the Yamatorige Fukuoka Ichimonji, which traded for $5m, so 550m yen. 
I am not sure about the number of Kiyomaro swords but there are books dedicated solely to him and perhaps someone could quote from there more specific information about that smith. 
 

[Promo]

Guys, it is an original Masayuki. Juyo would be the icing on the cake, but honestly: I don't need it. It would be nice if it would make it. If not, it still is a Masayuki blade of unique shape and with a cutting test. If I was to choose between the same blade without machiokuri but also without cutting test and my blade with cutting test but machiokuri I'd still always pick the one with the cutting test, even if this means due to machiokuri it won't make juyo. It adds so much more to its history and makes it very special not only among the Masayuki/Kiyomaro blades, but also among other blades of this period. The submission to juyo is mainly because it anyway already is in Japan and I won't be sending it over a second time, hence the try. I didn't find the blade, the blade found me, and I love it the way it is.

 

@Tom Darling, I've asked @Markus and he specifically told me that currently there are no shortcuts to juyo. Even if there were, I do not understand the sense of this discussion. I'm following the process by the rules and did TH first to get papers confirming it is an original Masayuki blade (remember that was a big discussion to nearly all). At least to me there is no benefit in using a shortcut to juyo (if there were one) - imagine getting to see a blade with juyo but no TH papers, wouldn't that sound weird and potentially suspicous? And this way I have everything according to the rules and all properly documented.

[Gakusee]

There are no shortcuts indeed, Georg. What happens, and people do not realise it, is that a blade can stay at the NBTHK on its progression up. The only shortcut at the moment is the 'joint', or simultaneous, submission to Hozon and Tokubetsu Hozon - that is possible. So, some blades are submitted to H&TH in one go, the blade stays at the NBTHK and then is enrolled into the Juyo shinsa. That  is possible.

 

The blade in my view will pass Juyo. Here some people are just trying to show sophistication and deeper analysis by focusing on negatives. 

[Nobody]

7 hours ago, Yasaka Azuma said:

I'll paste the evidence I saw online.

..........................................................................

The value of works by such a master craftsman changes over time, and depending on the state of preservation, the value of a piece that once cost tens of millions of yen may drop to several million yen.”

https://nihontoukaitori-hikaku.info/column/marketprice/

 

I am afraid that the interpretation is not correct. The linked source says 

"The value of works by such a master craftsman DO NOT CHANGE over time, BUT depending on the state of preservation, the value of OTHER SMITHS' WORKS that once cost tens of millions of yen may drop to several million yen.”.

 

[Hoshi]

 

Quote

https://nihontoukaitori-hikaku.info/column/marketprice/

 

As michael said this is an incorrect conclusion. 

 

Quote

The blade in my view will pass Juyo. Here some people are just trying to show sophistication and deeper analysis by focusing on negatives. 

 

This take, however, perfectly sums up my impression as well. 

 

It's a wonderful sword and I'll be taking bets it passes Juyo over 50/50. 

 

130 swords, I think this is a little bit on the low end of the estimate. I would put it more conservatively at 200. We only see the tip of the iceberg. There are course many variations around Kiyomaro from his different periods of worksmanship (up to blades left unfinished by him and signed by his students). 

[Tom Darling]

Georg,  we are all still looking forward to seeing your outstanding Masayuki in full polish. Please let us know.

 

Regards,

 

Tom D.

[waljamada]

Love being a fly on the wall for this tale.

[Yasaka Azuma]

If there are any errors in the machine translation that I pasted to present the basis for the scores, please correct them. I only know a superficial amount about Kiyomaro. If you have any information about his works, please let me know.

 

I can't say anything about the judging of Juyo-Token, but I'm sure that Kiyomaro has already been a topic of conversation among the judges. Because it is a work that rarely comes up as a new discovery. They must be waiting for it to come, imagining what kind of re-polished finish it will be. From now on, it is up to the owner to decide, but I too am looking forward to seeing it displayed at the Juyo-Token New Designation Exhibition.
 

[dkirkpatrick]

While i dont envy having to burnish those hi I am jealous of the polisher who got to strip away the years of abuse and bring this back to the world, what anticipation and excitement he must feel to watch those details emerge.  Georg, thank you for choosing to restore this treasure and for sharing your journey with us, it has been fascinating to follow.

 

All the best,

 

Doug

[Tom Darling]

Yes, I agree with Doug.  Now,  we would like to see it in its full glory,  is that possible anymore?

 

 

[Promo]

@Nobody thanks for the proper translation help! Very important to have Native speakers such as you aboard.

 

@Tom Darling, I currently do not have something that I am able to share of it (and the only thing that I have is very poor). I'm working on it and as soon as I got something that does it justice, it will be posted. I'm looking forward to see it now in full glory myself, so I'm among with you waiting for this!

[Promo]

OK, I got a small teaser to share!

[vajo]

I see something that looks like fresh rust?

 

 

Be carefull Georg.

 

Btw it is absolut beautifull.

[Tom Darling]

Georg,  give us another taste of your master piece and include the kissaki area.  I am beginning to wonder what the hold up is. Cheers.

[MovieFactoryYT]

im just reading through this whole thread now. truly a remarkable story. cant wait to see the blade in all its glory

[Promo]

@Tom Darling, it is not that I would hold back pictures for no one to see, it is simply that I do not have something to show in here. I've learnt to be patient and rather not inquire ten times. Sorry, and if it helps (sometimes shared pain hurts less? ): being the owner waiting is even worse than being a reader like you are.

[ChrisW]

1 hour ago, Promo said:

@Tom Darling, it is not that I would hold back pictures for no one to see, it is simply that I do not have something to show in here. I've learnt to be patient and rather not inquire ten times. Sorry, and if it helps (sometimes shared pain hurts less? ): being the owner waiting is even worse than being a reader like you are.

As much as we are all anticipating to see it, I can't imagine the anxiety you're going through. Must be torture!

[Promo]

Finally saw more of the blade. I hope that you in here not only you'll enjoy it as much as I did, but also to be educated on certain details.

[vajo]

Fantastic sword Georg. You could be very proud to have such a piece. It looks gorgeus. 

As i said before there is a little rust near the mune. Maybe you can ask the polisher to take a look.

 

[MichaelZWilliamson]

A fantastic thread and a beautiful blade. Congrats.

[Tom Darling]

Hi Georg,  the photograph and or polish doesn't do justice to your Masayuki. Have you a pic of the blades cutting test side. Nobody can judge your sword by this pic.  You definitely have a very rare sword. It maybe the only one known in this style/shape. Thank you.  

[Promo]

@Tom Darling, please forgive me in advance if this reply sounds rude for myself not being a native speaker of the English language, but your participations in this thread were sometimes very weird and not very helpful for myself. In post #50 you claimed "The habaki ( -0) is original to the nakago, but not the blade. The three (hi) beyond the machi is also a clue"; to my various inquiries what you supposed to tell me and how a habaki can be original to the nakago but not to the blade and which clue the three hi are for you never gave a reply and left others also wondering what you mean. You later then had suspicion it wouldn't make Juyo since it wasn't directly moved to Juyo but instead Tokubetsu Hozon first. Such assumptions make beginners, as I am, uncertain and require me to check back with more knowledgeable persons, such as Markus, who then assured me your thoughts are wrong and everything is alright with my blade and it does the process as it is supposed to be.

Subsequently I had requested better pictures of my blade to have something to share with persons that have helped and assisted me with their thoughts and I was eagerly waiting to get them myself, to finally see something more on the blade. You might be correct in that the pictures as uploaded to the forum are not perfect to make judgements on it - I am surely not the one to be able to tell if this picture is perfect or not. But first of all remember that the forum automatically resizes to pictures of maximum 1800 px width/length, plus during this process which also optimizes pictures filesize-wise as well, hence details may be lost. Next, have I had additional pictures, I would had posted them among too. So no, I don't have a full size blade picture of the other side. I'm keeping this forum updated and sharing what I can since many were very helpful and I love the idea of forums especially when it comes to sharing details and items with persons from all over the world for all to give them access to something they might not have and possibly learn from.

Finally, no my blade is not the only one known in this style and shape. Darcy on the first page posted one in exact identical style/shape even with also three hi from Juyo 18. You have participated in this thread with several posts, hence you should be aware of this.

Now, I don't want you to answer what you meant with the habaki/nakago post nor discuss again the way to Juyo, but mentioned these two things to maybe give you an outside view on how your postings can be understood/misunderstood by others, especially not knowledgeable persons. Therefore (and also because this way I can at least work around the picture size limitation) find attached a cutout picture of the kissaki area that you had particularily asked upon. To my personal astonishment when comparing the kissaki area with a picture that resulted in cleaning the blade (the particular second picture was posted in this thread on page 3 in post #76) it seems they match pretty well, hamon-wise.

 

@vajo thanks for the hint, I missed to address this earlier. I trust the handling person they will give a freshly polished blade proper treatment though so I don't think as a novice I should tell them how to correctly oil and store the blade. It might also just be a few wooden fibers that were in the way when the pictures were taken.

[Gakusee]

Georg, thank you for sharing your journey with us. Similarly to you, we are enjoying the ride and look forward to the end destination. Please do not get discouraged by a few detractions and distractions on the way there.