Japanese Blade from Court

[vajo]

Hi Georg.

No, if it is gimei it is not worthless. This sword is a well forged stunning sword. If you see VW-Golf with Ferrari Sign did you think it could be a Ferrari? If you see a Ferrari with a Golf Sign, did you think it is worthless?

 

The mei must fit to the sword.

[Jussi Ekholm]

I have been following this topic with great interest. Lots of valuable advice have been given by board members.

 

What intrigues me most is the fact that Darcy and Ray posted before the sword that passed Jūyō 18 session. Now that I got home and could check the page from 18 book, I must say they are really close. And would be dated relatively close to each other. Of course I haven't studied enough Masayuki mei to say anything definitive but like has been said before me the shape is promising in my mind.

 

Would it be possible that you would measure the sword? From the bump where the blade starts a straight line to the tip, and from the same point straight line towards the bottom of the tang. And if you could measure the width of the sword at the base of the blade in front of habaki from cutting edge to the backside.

 

It is great that you have decided to contact NBTHK-EU. I am sure our members can assist you further with this sword and give you other assistance as well.

[Promo]

I‘m sorry, I had thought I had attached the pictures showing the dimensions...

[Surfson]

Georg, I admire your choice of action plan.  

 

I believe that your best option is to put it in the hands of an agent, like Darcy or Paul Martin, who will handle the receipt and registration of the sword in Japan.  Members may disagree, but I agree with those that think that a "window" should then be put into the blade by a qualified polisher, which allows the experts to see the steel, the tempered edge etc.  At that point, your agent could either show it to Tanobe sensei for an impromptu opinion about it, or submit it to the NBTHK for an official judgement (which will cost you $300-400 or so).  Only after that will you have a definitive opinion as to whether it is a genuine Kiyomaro.  

 

If it is genuine, then it should next be given to the very best polisher for full restoration (hopefully the same one that made the window...).  If it is judged to be gimei, then you should consider whether to have it polished anyway, and I personally would base that decision on how attractive the steel and hamon are.  At this point, you would have other decisions to make as well, such as whether to have the fake signature etc. removed (a question that the text string already indicates that there are variations in opinion).  If you do decide to remove the signature etc., you could resubmit it to NBTHK after the polish and hope that it is attributed to a good maker, such as one of Kiyomaro's students.

 

If it would be your plan to sell it if genuine, then it might be best to have Darcy as your agent, since he is very well connected to big buyers in Japan and could probably help you extract full and fair value from it. 

 

To answer your question about insurance etc., having Darcy or Paul be your agent would probably get you under their policy, providing coverage - this is something you could ascertain prior to deciding who to use.  Many of us send swords to Japan with minimal insurance, and it does test one's nerves.  If the stated value of a sword is over 180,000 Yen, then I think that customs gets involved as well, although I am not entirely sure about this point.

[Blazeaglory]

I understood the terms since I did look them up. I however still did not understand what he meant. How can a Habaki be original to the Nakago, but not the blade? Second, which clue can give three lines above the machi?

I see what you mean. Yah I didn't understand that part either

[brannow]

Hi Georg,

 

If it were my sword I would be sending it to Japan, have a couple windows opened then have it looked at!

[Gakusee]

Georg

I recently went through some of the Juyo records and it seems that Masayuki did have a phase in his forging life revolving around the Nagamaki style. Around 1840-1841 (Tenpo 10-11) to around 1845-46, there are several at Juyo level. As Darcy mentioned, there are a couple which look similar to yours in execution. And as others have flagged up, the variety of mei for this guy is quite staggering.

[Promo]

Robert/Surfson, many thanks for the very helpful reply. I highly appreciate your ideas and I think I will anyway end up doing it this way. Except that I guess I will have it fully polished anyway. Since when a window is openend and considered gimei, I would not want it back with just the window but fully polished as wall hanger. While the mei then might not be original, it would still look great if fully polished. And considering the numbers I was given (3000-5000 Euro for polishing and 500 Euro for export and import papers) I can afford this, even if the end result would be a nice wall hanger.

 

How do I choose the right polisher? And it might sound funny, how can I trust this person that he won't do wrong, swap it for another one, etc.? I'm still worried on how I could trust someone who I've never met with something possibly this valuable.

 

Michael/Gakusee, would you mind sharing these blades which look similar? Would highly appreciate this!

[Ray Singer]

It would not necessarily be you personally making the choice of a togishi. Go through a reputable agent such as Darcy to get this into the hands of Tanobe-sensei and/or the NBTHK for an assessment. Once the mei is confirmed, the agent/Tanobe can recommend a togishi appropriate to this blade. Different polishers have different forte. Some excel at Shinto. Others are best for koto. Some you want to go to if the blade has special condition issues that must be addressed. This selection should be made by an expert such as Tanobe-sensei who can examine the blade and suggest the best craftsman for its restoration.

 

How do I choose the right polisher? And it might sound funny, how can I trust this person that he won't do wrong, swap it for another one, etc.? I'm still worried on how I could trust someone who I've never met with something possibly this valuable.

[Tom Darling]

We have all gone through what you are about to go through. We are all rooting for you, with the best intentions. Ray has given you the best advice.

Do you know what the blind man said, "we shall see". In a year or two. Do not take this as derogatory, I wish you twice the luck in your endeavors.  Welcome to nihonto.world.

 

Tom D.

[paulb]

Georg,

Regardingthe second part of your question about trust. The names being recommended are at the top of their field. As in any other discipline they have achieved their reputation through being good at what they do,. They also know (especially in such a small community as the Japanese Sword World) that they need to preserve their reputations if they want to enjoy the level of patronage they would like. All of them have been  transparently honest in any dealings I have had with them. I have known the gentlemen recommended here for many years (although Tanobe Sensei only though correspondence and via other peoples direct expereince) And would have no hesitation in using their services on any of my swords.

Good luck and I hope it works out well for you.

Paul

[Surfson]

As to trust, it would be very difficult for somebody to swap out your sword with another, as every sword is registered with the authorities when received into Japan, at which time they collect measurements (and probably photos, though I don't know this for sure) and are able to precisely relate the sword to the license.  This procedure is reversed when it is sent back from Japan to the UK.  

 

As to maneuvering through the process, I suggest that you hire Darcy to be your liaison and help you with all of the decision making process.  He is widely trusted in our field and best prepared to deal with this sword if it does turn out to be genuine.  

[Promo]

Just a short update, got information from court. The blade was seized in a private apartment in the same town where this court is located from a person who for reasons I've not been told was given a weapon ban. A very interesting detail I was told was the fact that the blade previously must had been in the cellar of his mothers house which is very close to my home (only 20 minutes drive away). So it came back to the area where it originally was.

[Brian]

Guys, where the sword came from and it's provenance is beyond the scope of this forum, and basically none of our business. I am deleting any further comments on where it came from and how. All the advice that can be given has now been given. It is up to Georg how he proceeds now.

[Jason N]

I understood the terms since I did look them up. I however still did not understand what he meant. How can a Habaki be original to the Nakago, but not the blade? Second, which clue can give three lines above the machi?

I believe he means that the mune-machi and ha-machi were moved forward serving to slightly shorten the blade (as Nihonto are measured) but lengthening the nakago. This would result in the habaki being located closer towards the kissaki than it’s original placement. At least, that’s how I interpreted his post.

 

-Jason

[Promo]

I'm almost sure many will now want to kill me (post the heart attack they have had), but well ... see the attachment (yes, just a crappy mobile phone picture). I'm using a cleaner for guns which is non-acid to remove rust without hurting the metal at all. And I thought to myself it anyway needs polishing, so I will just see if it works on the blade. It did, since I think I unveiled the hamon and aside of the notches which were already previously visible no damages nor rust pittings or cracks were visible. So it should be a very easy polish as well. Opinions are appreciated, but hope these will refer to the hamon and rather not what I did .

[Jason N]

I'm almost sure many will now want to kill me

I think “kill” is not the appropriate word, but short of comniting seppuku, redeeming yourself may not be possible.

 

There’s no telling how seriously you may have permanently damaged (or not) the steel using a modern gun cleaning product made to be used on modern steel. It’s a shame. If you ever intended to sell the blade, there are probably many that would decline purchasing if they knew you applied a modern chemical that could potentially continue attacking the sword steel long after the initial application.

 

-Jason

 

Edited for fat fingers.

[vajo]

Georg please stop any self laborating on the blade. You can do what you want with your blade, but in respect to the ancient artifact and the worth for the sword community don't do anything more.

[Ray Singer]

Please do nothing more on your own to restore this sword or improve visibility Georg. The Masayuki could have been evaluated for authenticity in its previous state, and this is type of 'cleaning' does not help in authenticating it or do anything good for the sword's preservation.

[Brian]

I'd like to know what product, and let's go easy on Georg. Could be a nitrosolvent or something else innocuous. I don't think there is any damage done, but go over it with oil repeatedly in case.
Hamon looks good, sword looks healthy.
One correction, there is no such thing as an easy polish. Even one tiny pit (that you won't see easily) means the entire sword needs a new and complete polish, as the entire surface must be kept level.
And this sword needs a detailed polish. There are plenty of things to be addressed.
Keep wiping with oil and clean tissues or soft cloth. The rust will reduce. Nice to see the hamon is there and no sights of a burnt blade.
Slow down....send it for a professional evaluation! Get hold of Darcy. A chat will cost you nothing.
 

[Tom Darling]

Amen, amen!

 

 

Tom D.

[Surfson]

Georg, does this mean that the sword has now been safely returned to you?  That is a relief, I think.  I thought that Ted did a base polish on it in Japan, isn't that right?  Anyway, it is nice to see that it has an exuberant hamon.  Please see if you can take a photo of the part where the temper line disappears that was discussed in the thread.  I doubt that you have hurt it with this cleaner, but agree with the others that it is generally not a good idea to attempt to restore on our own.  Cheers, Bob

[Prewar70]

Bob I think you’re mixing this sword with the other one that was with Darcy

[Rivkin]

I'm almost sure many will now want to kill me (post the heart attack they have had), but well ... see the attachment (yes, just a crappy mobile phone picture). I'm using a cleaner for guns which is non-acid to remove rust without hurting the metal at all. And I thought to myself it anyway needs polishing, so I will just see if it works on the blade. It did, since I think I unveiled the hamon and aside of the notches which were already previously visible no damages nor rust pittings or cracks were visible. So it should be a very easy polish as well. Opinions are appreciated, but hope these will refer to the hamon and rather not what I did .

 

Georg, it looks about right in a sense that wide and nie-spotty variation (but a very loose one) on Chogi-soden-bizen topic is one of the possible expected outcomes if it is Kiyomaro. And what you show is (sort of) consistent with that. Another likely possibility would have been something more "Masamune"-like.

The problem is that similar things were done before and after by many others and the early works by Kiyomaro can be, well, not that distinctive by themselves to an untrained eye like mine, and possibly not only mine, and it might come down to whether the signature is within the accepted ballpark. There is a high profile Kiyomaro collectors club in Japan and they also can be of significant help in getting this answered.

But yes, the style shown in this sword is (sort of) one of the expected possibilities.

 

Just a personal, and likely erroneous take.

 

Kirill R.

[Promo]

I knew most would not appreciate it and I would not had done this, had I not known what I am doing. I mentioned it is something non-acid which I'm touching with my hands as well, and my fingers didn't fall off by now nor am I'm bleeding to death. And I've cleaned everything off and then oiled it and wiped it clear. So nothing left on the blade. My intention was only to prevent it from further rusting, I didn't do any polishing nor did I use anything that could get into the base material. While polishing it material will be removed - I didn't remove anything except for the rust.

 

It is now conserved and will not be rusting any further, so from now on I am anyway unable to do anything further. And the visible hamon was just a side result of what I've been doing - and since many here said the hamon needs to be visible to authenticate it, I thought I would show it to all in here. I'm happy that there is one and it also looks that it is cloudy. Additionally, I was able to check it for any rust holes, cracks or material damages - there are none there. So a good sign that it can be polished. I do know I know nothing on polishing such a blade, but by the "easy polish" I was referring to these facts that there are no no-go such as the just mentioned rust holes or cracks visible.

 

Will try today to do a better picture of the hamon, but will need to play with light. Have learnt yesterday evening that LED light makes the hamon much better visible, and will use this for hopefully better pictures. And if some in here might wonder why I'm still having it when all anyway told me that it needs to go to Japan - yes, I've learnt this and understood this and will anyway need to get it to Japan for polishing and papering it. But I had agreed with a friend of mine that the blade will be brought ot a European NBTHK meeting taking place on 18th May this year in Munich for others to take a look at it in person. So prior to this I anyway can't export it anywhere and there are some days left to get opinions from in here.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Hi Georg, try taking pictures in sunlight, works a treat with out of polish blades.

[16k]

I’ve found out that sometimes, when you take the picture of a Hamon, transforming it into a negative picture via photoshop helps seeing what a positive image doesn’t quite show clearly. You might want to play with that, Georg.

[Tom Darling]

Gentlemen,

 

Allow me to add another ( wrinkle) scenario. Theoretically speaking, "Kiyomaro made the blade, but a student signed it, would it then become gemei?

 

Tom D.

[paulb]

no that would be classified as "Daimei" made by the master but the signature applied by a student. The other variant seen is Daisaku which is made by a student but signed with the masters mei.

[Rivkin]

Involved question!

I think for pre-Tembun blades there could be just a note made that the signature requires further study in Juyo zufu without the blade being rejected - meaing the writing is old, but can be not contemporary to the blade. If they feel that the signature is actually from Edo period, they will reject it even if correct.

Daimei can be applied for Edo period works, but I thought only to the cases where such collaboration is well established (for example, between 1st and 2nd generation). Possibly Kiyomaro-Kiyondo can be one of them, but I don't have any experience...

What I do know is that tosogu where signature is 100% of the actual maker's name, but is quite unusual - it is typically rejected. I had encountered quite a few pieces with signatures or writings that were added later, and the shinsa does not want to create any future misreadings vis-a-vis what it considers the authentic signature, and rejects in case of doubt.

 

P.S. However I had shumei and kimpenmei blades papering with a note that the attribution is not correct, but also heard many more stories about similar cases being rejected.

 

Kirill R.