Japanese Blade from Court

[Surfson]

I just went back and looked at the Tanobe sayagaki for my Norishige (also a discovery - it was a unloved sword at a show).  In it, he uses Yuhin nari, which is very exciting to me considering what Markus told you.  Thank you for the useful information!

[Promo]

I was informed today that its submission to the 68th Juyo Shinsa was not successful, it did not make it. At first I was a bit disappointed, because it would had been the icing on the cake, but three hours later now I don't feel bad about this any more. It would had been nice to know why it didn't make it - was it the machiokuri they didn't like, any flaws that I had not seen or noticed, or didn't they like the fact that I had the sayagaki added prior to their Juyo shinsa, or would they simply not give out Juyo papers on first submission to Juyo ... I don't know and will most likely never find out. As I though had mentioned in this thread already: I rather have the sword exactly as it is, machiokuri and with cutting test but no Juyo papers than without machiokuri, cutting test but Juyo papers. The cutting test and the obviously old machiokuri tell so much more on its history and add to the item itself what a simple certificate dating 180 years after it was made can never compensate.

 

The best part of this thread therefore is very close: to get it back into my hands. I'll give it another update when this is finally achieved. Oh, and by the way: it will be accompanied back home by the Tachi which the NBHTK attributed to Hokke-Ichijō, so even two items to look forward to.

[Gakusee]

57 minutes ago, Promo said:

I was informed today that its submission to the 68th Juyo Shinsa was not successful, it did not make it. At first I was a bit disappointed, because it would had been the icing on the cake, but three hours later now I don't feel bad about this any more. It would had been nice to know why it didn't make it - was it the machiokuri they didn't like, any flaws that I had not seen or noticed, or didn't they like the fact that I had the sayagaki added prior to their Juyo shinsa, or would they simply not give out Juyo papers on first submission to Juyo ... I don't know and will most likely never find out. As I though had mentioned in this thread already: I rather have the sword exactly as it is, machiokuri and with cutting test but no Juyo papers than without machiokuri, cutting test but Juyo papers. The cutting test and the obviously old machiokuri tell so much more on its history and add to the item itself what a simple certificate dating 180 years after it was made can never compensate.

 

The best part of this thread therefore is very close: to get it back into my hands. I'll give it another update when this is finally achieved. Oh, and by the way: it will be accompanied back home by the Tachi which the NBHTK attributed to Hokke-Ichijō, so even two items to look forward to.

Hi Georg

Please do not give up. It might be that they did not reach a consensus this time or there was a superior Kiyomaro in the line-up. I have had instances where an item failed a particular shinsa and then, the following time I submitted it, it passed. It has happened to me with koshirae and also with swords. 
It is a great sword one way or another. 

[Fuuten]

Thank you for the follow up. That's a stroke of bad luck though it is on its own a success story! And it's not as if it cannot pass even though it didn't. This is one great thread

[ChrisW]

16 hours ago, Gakusee said:

Hi Georg

Please do not give up. It might be that they did not reach a consensus this time or there was a superior Kiyomaro in the line-up. I have had instances where an item failed a particular shinsa and then, the following time I submitted it, it passed. It has happened to me with koshirae and also with swords. 
It is a great sword one way or another. 

 

Agree with this strongly! Without being one of them, we won't know the reason why unless they would pass word along. Definitely resubmit later, it deserves Juyo!

[dkirkpatrick]

That’s very unfortunate.  Seems very hard to understand given all of the factors involved.  Also unfortunate that there is no guidance given for the failure as it would shape decision to re-submit.  Glad to hear you taking it well and again congratulations on saving something historically special from years of neglect.

[Promo]

I'll not resubmit my sword. It is just a certificate, and does a Masayuki/Kiyomaro blade absolutely need Juyo papers? Even if it would influence its potential value it wouldn't matter to me since I'll be keeping it anyway. Plus, to be honest, after more than three years of it out of hands I am really highly looking forward to see it again .

[ZoomZ]

That is so cool man !

 

Waiting is always the hardest part .

 

Congratz ! !

[Promo]

I almost forgot to mention that I am searching for the Masayuki Wakizashi with cutting test/the owner of this Wakizashi that I have attached two pictures of. So far I had not been successful in locating it, only learnt that the last known owner passed away 10 years ago. The reason for my search is that this Wakizashi also features a period cutting test (which though - for whatever reason - lacks the cutting testers name) and is from approximately the same period as my blade. I was wondering if there might be a connection between this Wakizashi and my Katana. Is anyone aware on its current whereabout?

[Prewar70]

That seems unbelievable to me but I know very little in comparison to others.  Did it leave Japan without any papers or did it receive TH?

[Sutraken]

As far as I know, it received a tokubetsu hozon certificate, which also confirmed the authenticity of the cutting test. The Masayuki only fails to get juyo at the previous shinsa. I hope I summarize the content of this thread correctly. 

 

-Stefan 

[Promo]

On 11/23/2022 at 9:23 PM, Prewar70 said:

That seems unbelievable to me but I know very little in comparison to others.  Did it leave Japan without any papers or did it receive TH?

Stefan in his above post already summarized it correctly, I may though add that it currently still is in Japan waiting for export papers to return back home, just to make it fully technically correct.

[Guest Simon R]

Dear Promo,

 

I have never possessed - nor will ever possess - a Nihonto in the league of your absolutely miraculous discovery.

However, I've had a much inferior blade run the gamut from NTHK papered 'Shin-Shinto/Kanteisho' to NBTHK failed 'Gimei made with foreign steel' to NBTHK papered 'Showa/Hozon' within the space of 18 years (a full NMB account to follow).

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is if, you truly think "xxxx them, I proved it is what it is and I can now walk away" then just get your beautiful sword back and be ecstatic.

However, if at some point in the future, you're going to think "Perhaps I should've gone for Juyo again", then you'll have to go through all the crap of export/import/export/import again (and personally, I think it will almost certainly make it the next time).

 

Whatever you choose, you're the envy of the Nihonto world - including Japan.

 

Best wishes,

 

Simon

[Promo]

Simon,

I appreciate your thoughts and recommendations, especially given your personal experiences I also can feel what you subly are suggesting to me. So also let me be honest: my feeling is that I already got more than I ever expected. And I am very thankful for this gift that I truly stumbled upon.

Maybe a year ago I read a very old post (or entry? I can't say for sure) of Darcy Brockbank where he told the story of a Nihonoto collector who has a very high end blade, but only papered Hozon. To now summarize it in my words, simply because it confirms the signature is original, and that was enough for this collector, he got what he wanted. This made me think way more than it probably should. The result was that I noticed the certification at higher level, while it does honor certain pieces, is, at least it appears to me, a truly part of Western culture - to "win", to put something "at highest level", to "compete" with others. If you though look at a blade from an isolated point of view the Hozon or Tokubetsu Hozon papers are way more important, because (if signed) they verify the (signature of the) blade, whereas (to my understanding) Juyo is way more often seen as an award. Additionally (and mentioning it again), does a Masayuki/Kiyomaro blade absolutely need Juyo? Now doing the comparison/competition that I just doomed: for a lot of other smiths the fact if they are Juyo or not make a huge (especially value-wise) difference for them. Blades made by Masayuki/Kiyomaro are, from what I learnt and got told during my journey, somewhat flying above this. So even from this view, unless you have set certain collection limitations such as "Juyo only" or are a "certification junkie", it does not make this much of a difference.

If you by now wonder based on the above why I even bothered to submit to Juyo, the answer is pretty simple. Because it already was in Japan, and because you nevertheless try, when the limits for the preconditions are low. Yes, sure I could wait and submit it next year again. And the following year. From what I gathered the chances that one day a blade (fulfilling certain levels of quality) can get Juyo if submitted enough times exist. But what are my advantages of this? In case this really applies, it would simply be a question of time and money until one gets Juyo papers. This to me, given the premise that I'll keep the blade anyway and do not plan to sell it, makes not this much sense whereas for a dealer who is looking/needs to make profit it makes more sense. So my premises are much different and not commercially driven.

Finally, I am still young, plus I expect the NBHTK even exist after my death, or at least there will always be some kind of certification of higher level. So if I ever decide I want to go for it again, then there will always be possibilities for this. Even for my descendants.

[Walter55]

2 hours ago, Promo said:

Simon,

I appreciate your thoughts and recommendations, especially given your personal experiences I also can feel what you subly are suggesting to me. So also let me be honest: my feeling is that I already got more than I ever expected. And I am very thankful for this gift that I truly stumbled upon.

Maybe a year ago I read a very old post (or entry? I can't say for sure) of Darcy Brockbank where he told the story of a Nihonoto collector who has a very high end blade, but only papered Hozon. To now summarize it in my words, simply because it confirms the signature is original, and that was enough for this collector, he got what he wanted. This made me think way more than it probably should. The result was that I noticed the certification at higher level, while it does honor certain pieces, is, at least it appears to me, a truly part of Western culture - to "win", to put something "at highest level", to "compete" with others. If you though look at a blade from an isolated point of view the Hozon or Tokubetsu Hozon papers are way more important, because (if signed) they verify the (signature of the) blade, whereas (to my understanding) Juyo is way more often seen as an award. Additionally (and mentioning it again), does a Masayuki/Kiyomaro blade absolutely need Juyo? Now doing the comparison/competition that I just doomed: for a lot of other smiths the fact if they are Juyo or not make a huge (especially value-wise) difference for them. Blades made by Masayuki/Kiyomaro are, from what I learnt and got told during my journey, somewhat flying above this. So even from this view, unless you have set certain collection limitations such as "Juyo only" or are a "certification junkie", it does not make this much of a difference.

If you by now wonder based on the above why I even bothered to submit to Juyo, the answer is pretty simple. Because it already was in Japan, and because you nevertheless try, when the limits for the preconditions are low. Yes, sure I could wait and submit it next year again. And the following year. From what I gathered the chances that one day a blade (fulfilling certain levels of quality) can get Juyo if submitted enough times exist. But what are my advantages of this? In case this really applies, it would simply be a question of time and money until one gets Juyo papers. This to me, given the premise that I'll keep the blade anyway and do not plan to sell it, makes not this much sense whereas for a dealer who is looking/needs to make profit it makes more sense. So my premises are much different and not commercially driven.

Finally, I am still young, plus I expect the NBHTK even exist after my death, or at least there will always be some kind of certification of higher level. So if I ever decide I want to go for it again, then there will always be possibilities for this. Even for my descendants.

George, du bist ein toller Mensch, gut gemacht, ich freue mich für dich,

 

Walter , Triest, Italia

[sbf]

Georg,

  Congratulations on your find, and your perseverance in seeing this saga through. And a saga it truly is.  It showed the best and worst of human nature, between unscrupulous people advising you the sword was gimei but still trying to buy it (and acting as if they would be doing you a favor by taking it off your hands), and the good souls who gave sound advice and helped guide you to this happy conclusion. You navigated some rough seas but held your course. Bravo!

 

 I agree with you regarding Juyo papers. Yes it would be nice, but rather than wait another year it's time to bring the sword home so you can enjoy it.

 

 I have followed this since the day you first posted on the Wehrmacht Awards Forums. You may be interested to know there is a similar thread going on there right now, with the same unscrupulous characters behaving exactly the same way. "It's gimei but I would like to buy it". Unbelievable!

 

Steve

[Guest Simon R]

16 hours ago, Promo said:

Simon,

I appreciate your thoughts and recommendations, especially given your personal experiences I also can feel what you subly are suggesting to me. So also let me be honest: my feeling is that I already got more than I ever expected. And I am very thankful for this gift that I truly stumbled upon.

Maybe a year ago I read a very old post (or entry? I can't say for sure) of Darcy Brockbank where he told the story of a Nihonoto collector who has a very high end blade, but only papered Hozon. To now summarize it in my words, simply because it confirms the signature is original, and that was enough for this collector, he got what he wanted. This made me think way more than it probably should. The result was that I noticed the certification at higher level, while it does honor certain pieces, is, at least it appears to me, a truly part of Western culture - to "win", to put something "at highest level", to "compete" with others. If you though look at a blade from an isolated point of view the Hozon or Tokubetsu Hozon papers are way more important, because (if signed) they verify the (signature of the) blade, whereas (to my understanding) Juyo is way more often seen as an award. Additionally (and mentioning it again), does a Masayuki/Kiyomaro blade absolutely need Juyo? Now doing the comparison/competition that I just doomed: for a lot of other smiths the fact if they are Juyo or not make a huge (especially value-wise) difference for them. Blades made by Masayuki/Kiyomaro are, from what I learnt and got told during my journey, somewhat flying above this. So even from this view, unless you have set certain collection limitations such as "Juyo only" or are a "certification junkie", it does not make this much of a difference.

If you by now wonder based on the above why I even bothered to submit to Juyo, the answer is pretty simple. Because it already was in Japan, and because you nevertheless try, when the limits for the preconditions are low. Yes, sure I could wait and submit it next year again. And the following year. From what I gathered the chances that one day a blade (fulfilling certain levels of quality) can get Juyo if submitted enough times exist. But what are my advantages of this? In case this really applies, it would simply be a question of time and money until one gets Juyo papers. This to me, given the premise that I'll keep the blade anyway and do not plan to sell it, makes not this much sense whereas for a dealer who is looking/needs to make profit it makes more sense. So my premises are much different and not commercially driven.

Finally, I am still young, plus I expect the NBHTK even exist after my death, or at least there will always be some kind of certification of higher level. So if I ever decide I want to go for it again, then there will always be possibilities for this. Even for my descendants.

Hi Georg,

 

In retrospect, everything you say makes perfect sense. If you find a previously unknown Da Vinci which is confirmed as 100% genuine, you don't then need some 'expert' to tell you it it is a "good" Da Vinci. You just sit back with a beer (glass of champagne?) and take pleasure in owning such an extraordinarily rare object. 👍

 

As for myself, I'd like to clarify that I'm not a 'paper-chaser' or, as you so aptly put it, a 'certification-junkie' who believes that only a Japanese origami can validate a sword. I simply strongly believed that my katana was neither shin-shinto, nor gimei and sought some kind of closure on the matter. Also, as I actually live in Tokyo, Japan, it's pretty simple and straightforward for me to put something back in for shinsa (even if it took me fifteen years to bother getting around to it).

 

Lastly, please let me congratulate you, once again, on fulfilling the dream of every Nihonto enthusiast - and for having the grace and goodwill of sharing your mind blowing experience here on the NMB.

 

With very best wishes,

 

Simon

[Promo]

I'm pleased to let all know today the blade arrived back home with me (among the Hokke Ichijo -> https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/33001-tachi-bringback/ ). So roughly four years later now the journey of the blade ended where it began.

 

Had spent probably 10 minutes of looking at the steel and then put it back in the shirasaya. Will need to find some more time to look at in detail. Not being an expert, but especially having the as well freshly polished Hokke Ichijo blade aside even to beginners such as me the much more life one can see in the Masayuki is obvious. And what I really realized and wasn't much aware in 2019 was the super complex cross section (I'm very certain there is a nihonto term for that but for the lack of even knowing the correct term for this in my mother tongue forgive me for calling it this way) of the blade that actually changes various times. At least to me this appeared as a very complex overall geometry.

 

When I find time I'll do some more pictures. Seeing how bad I am compared to those who have way more experience in taking pictures of blades .

[Promo]

The blade is so full of life and well polished that actually you don't even need special light nor a good camera since the details are visible anyway. Attached are a few pictures I did only with daylight and my mobile phone. Depending on the angle in which you hold it to the camera you can see different details of the blade. Additionally these made visible a detail which the togishi choose to do - to remove absolutely as minimal material as possible and rather leave a very few rust pits and chips rather than to take away too much material, yet the result is fantastic.

 

The three hi are fantastic and satisfying to look at. Especially for me since I absolutely love them for being perfectly parallel and mirrored on both sides of the blade. Notice the blade cross section changes to diamond shape in front of the hi just to go back to wedge shape (oh year, I know I'm using the wrong terms!) towards the tip.

[Markdd]

looks very nice, enjoy

[jesse]

Georg, I also thank you for sharing your journey with us.  I have found it both educational and stimulating to follow your pilgrimage.

I tend to ignore individuals when they are bound to negativity for whatever reasons.  It states to your character that you spent the time to acknowledge some of that negativity in a very positive manner.  Well Done.

I am in utter amazement that you found the blade and then, as a novice, had the patience of an experienced Nihonto collector in your search for the knowledge needed to proceed.

Also, congratulations, you are now the proud caretaker of a most extraordinary sword.

 

Warm Regards, 

[Promo]

Long time no post .. sorry to bring it up again. I'm planning to attend the NBHTK Europe meeting in Manching in Germany on 28th September 2024, mainly to bring the blade along for anyone interested to take a look at it. For what I was able to understand it will start at 14:00 local time. Would be great to see faces behind nicknames.

[DKR]

Georg ,

Super ! 

Das wäre dann definitiv ein absolutes Highlight diese Klinge in der realen Welt zu sehen.

Ich freue mich jetzt schon.....

 

Es gibt nur ein kleines "aber "

Ich schreib dazu noch eine PM an Dich.

 

[cisco-san]

Just read the whole thread - well done Georg, great blade, great find (every Nihonto collector is dreaming about such a incredibly find), great story!! I have no more words, still speechless!!

 

[Jon]

Amazing find and well done on preserving and restoring this amazing blade..what a brilliant story….

[Rusty]

What a great story. What a great sugata! This beautiful sword overcame years of neglect, ran the WAF shark gauntlet and came out looking like a national treasure. Nicely done, Georg. I think the "Masamune of Yotsuya" would be very pleased.

[Promo]

On 3/3/2024 at 10:49 PM, Promo said:

Long time no post .. sorry to bring it up again. I'm planning to attend the NBHTK Europe meeting in Manching in Germany on 28th September 2024, mainly to bring the blade along for anyone interested to take a look at it. For what I was able to understand it will start at 14:00 local time. Would be great to see faces behind nicknames.

I'd need to add to this, attending to this meeting is only possible for NBTHK (Europe) members. But fortunately there is plenty time left to join .

 

https://www.nbthk.net/news

[cisco-san]

20 hours ago, Promo said:

I'd need to add to this, attending to this meeting is only possible for NBTHK (Europe) members. But fortunately there is plenty time left to join .

 

https://www.nbthk.net/news

Exceptions should be always possible!!!

[Promo]

Bringing it up a last time - hope to see all NBTHK Europe members from this forum in Manching (in Germany) in exactly one week, next Saturday. I'll bring this Masayuki along so that all of you can inspect it in person. Highly looking forward to it!

[Lewis B]

1 hour ago, Promo said:

Bringing it up a last time - hope to see all NBTHK Europe members from this forum in Manching (in Germany) in exactly one week, next Saturday. I'll bring this Masayuki along so that all of you can inspect it in person. Highly looking forward to it!

Unrelated but is there a list of future NBTHK EB meetings and locations? Where are these announced?