Numbers on nakago of Stsr stamped Kunitake Gendaito

[shibeni]

Sword is star stamped: 堀川治右衛門國威 (Horikawa Jiuemon Kunitake) .

Date is, 1943. There is a number in the base of nakago..any info about this (490) numbering in traditional made Gendaito.

Thanx

Bojan S.

[PNSSHOGUN]

If memory serves me right there are assembly or inventory numbers.

[shibeni]

So hand made swords were made by the JRT smiths, inspected, marked and than given to officers..or officers can choose sword in some lavel of JRT swordsmith? And the arsenal numbers were to track which officer recived which sword?

Bojan S.

[Bruce Pennington]

Bojan,

 

I haven't studied this particular numbering system that closely. George Trotter has looked at it more deeply and says in another thread:

 

"George, regarding "contract numbers" - does this mean each number was tied to a custom contract with an individual, or does it refer to the smith's contract with the army; and/or are the numbers representative of how many blades he's made for the army under contract?

That is what we don't really know clearly Bruce. I think every customer who walked in the door and asked for a sword got a number, but maybe also the brothers just numbered each sword they produced before sending it to the polisher-mounter-retailer in Tokyo who then sold it in the Army Officer's Store on their behalf. The later type of number system may have been introduced by the RJT to identify contract makers working from their own shops in the various prefectures. "ta" may have identified Niigata Pref. and "o" may have meant Aoyama Pref. (I have a number "o"154 on a tang by Aoyama RJT Nagao Kunishiro dated 19/2). We just don't know yet."

 

At first glance, it does seem to be tied to RJT blades, but from my vague memory, I don't think all RJT blades were numbered, though I could be wrong about that. Sounds like more study is needed on this!

[shibeni]

Thank you Bruce. Here is old post about Kunitake's yunger brother sword, with number 408.

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/10526-please-help-with-identification-of-wwii-Japanese-sword/?hl=kunitake&do=findComment&comment=107760

[Bruce Pennington]

Interesting. I do recall seeing others where the number on the blade matches the numbers on the fittings. That could mean they were assembly numbers, or it could mean that the fitters simply stamped the number already on the blade to the fittings, and the blade number was originally there for other reasons.

[shibeni]

Bruce, all fittings numbers on my example have no.22.Tsuka has some red stamp. Thinking JRT or just Kunitake's smiths have their own marking sytem. Maybe fittings and Tsuka, Koshirae were assebled in other workshop.

[Kiipu]

  On 4/13/2019 at 8:13 AM, shibeni said:

Sword is star stamped: 堀川治右衛門國威 (Horikawa Jiuemon Kunitake) .

Date is, 1943. There is a number in the base of nakago..any info about this (490) numbering in traditional made Gendaito.

Expand  

 

Bojan, are there any inspection marks on the nakago or nakago mune?

[shibeni]

There are no inspection marks, only JRT star ..exept number on Nakago.

Bojan S.

[Kiipu]

Thank you @shibeni.  When time permits, I would like to see a picture of the date side of the tang if possible.  I am interested in what month it was made in.  They changed the serialization method sometime in early 1943 and every little bit of information helps in narrowing the change down.

[shibeni]

Here is the Showa 18 date..

Regards,

Bojan S.

[Kiipu]

Thank you!  This is what I have recorded.

Reverse: ☆　堀川治右衛門國威作　490

Obverse: 昭和十八年一月吉日 = A lucky day in January 1943.

Nakago mune: No markings.

[Kiipu]

I found that other "Horikawa Ji’emon Kunitake saku" that you replied to back in 2019.  Interesting that yours is 490 and the other is 487, albeit 487 not pictured though.

mei translation help please.

 

Attention @Bruce Pennington

[shibeni]

Yes,  I finded this interesting info in old post,..both numbers are so close, so I tought there must be some JRT system. As my Gunto Koshirae is en suite and all fittings have matching numbers (not the same as number on Nakago), must be number on Nakago something else than a assembly number..

Bojan S.

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 8/7/2021 at 5:38 PM, shibeni said:

all fittings have matching numbers (not the same as number on Nakago)

Expand  

Important information Bojan, can I get pics of the fittings with numbers, please?

[shibeni]

Bruce, as I'm on holidays at the moment, I will post all fittings pictures on 16.8., when I return home.. All fittings have number 22 (add puctures which I have on phone). There is also red seal on wood (Tsuka), under fuchi..

Regards,

Bojan

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks Bojan!  Yours is one of a growing list of gunto with numbers on the fittings that don't match the number stamped on the blade.  They support the concept that then stamped numbers are not fitting-shop numbers, but rather an Army inspector/tracking/serial number of some sort.

[Bruce Pennington]

@george trotter or anyone who knows - I can't find a province for Kunitake.  Anyone know?

[shibeni]

Hi Bruce, try this link: http://www.jp-sword.com/files/blade/kunitake.html

Regards,

Bojan

[Bruce Pennington]

Bingo!  Thanks Bojan!  Akita prefecture.

[shibeni]

Here are the fittings, all marked with 22, on habaki is // //..all fitings are original to the blade, koshirae is very well preserved. On nakago only star and numbers,(+mei and date). I can contribute any photo if needed.

Regards,

Bojan

[Kiipu]

  On 8/8/2021 at 6:24 AM, shibeni said:

There is also red seal on wood (tsuka), under fuchi.

Expand  

 

Bojan, it looks like a sloppy 二二 to me.  Maybe someone else can share some thoughts about it.  Thank you for the additional information about your sword.

二二 = 22.