Japan License Paper and Signature

[KRM]

I understand that it is in no way the same as a shinsa paper, but i've read that the license paper that is kept with all registered nihonto in Japan, contains some indication of whether or not it is gimei or true. Is this accurate? If so, how reliable would that indication be?

 

I have looked over the license paper for the wak that i recently acquired and i do see the signature and so forth on there, but i do not see any indication of weather or not the signature is accurate.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Many Thanks,

Kevin

 

PS: I didn't tape the license to the shirasaya. It was like that when i received it

 

[Bugyotsuji]

The registration 'Toroku-sho' is usually taped or elastic banded onto the shira-saya like that.

Messy, but nothing unsual. The quick and definitive answer to your question is no, there is never any indication as to whether it is Gimei or not. The Education Authority simple records the markings and dimensions of the sword or gun and assigns a serial number to it.

 

I see yours was registered with the Miyazaki Education Board in Kyushu.

[Brian]

Kevin,

No. The license paper does nothing to verify shoshin or not. It simply states the sword is licenced and says what the sword looks like for identification purposes, including any mei on it. However they make no attempt at all to verify authenticity. It is worthless for any purposes besides legalities.

 

Brian

 

ETA - Piers..fast fingers there! :lol:

[DirkO]

It is however used and withheld if you want to export nihonto from Japan to somewhere else. At least that's what I think. This would make sense, seeing the "tagging" of nihonto is done to know which nihonto are in Japan.

 

So if one exports a blade, then that tag is snapped up and the documentation for that bladenumber is updated. I don't know if a new tag is created when you import nihonto into Japan.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[KRM]

Thanks for the info guys. My wife will be pleased that i will stop pestering her to read the paper to me over and over again :D

 

I had read that bit about the signature verification somewhere very recently, but as we all know, you can't believe a good deal of what is on the internet (although i have a certain degree of faith as to what i read on this particular forum).

 

BTW: Brian, are you able to see the photos above? As i recall last time, there were some issues. I contacted my hosting provider to see if they were blocking requests from your part of the web and i received a somewhat ambiguous answer along with a request for the IP block from where you were coming. If it is working now, i suppose we can assume it to be a one time anomaly. If not, please inform me.

 

Thanks again,

Kevin

[KRM]

It is however used and withheld if you want to export nihonto from Japan to somewhere else. At least that's what I think. This would make sense, seeing the "tagging" of nihonto is done to know which nihonto are in Japan.

 

So if one exports a blade, then that tag is snapped up and the documentation for that bladenumber is updated. I don't know if a new tag is created when you import nihonto into Japan.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

That is correct, the blade must be "de-licensed" upon leaving Japan and the license paper will be confiscated. My understanding is that you have to pack the blade up in front of a customs official and then hand the package over so that they know for certain that it is leaving. If this is accurate, it kind of makes it a PITA, but i can understand their reasoning.

 

If i were to ever import THIS particular blade back into Japan, i do not know if they would issue a new license or "reactivate" the old one. I would have to assume that a new license would be created. These things don't have serial numbers or anything (some WWII era habaki excluded here), so i would think that they would have a difficult time determining if the blade had been registered previously or not.

 

Kevin

[Brian]

BTW: Brian, are you able to see the photos above? As i recall last time, there were some issues. I contacted my hosting provider to see if they were blocking requests from your part of the web and i received a somewhat ambiguous answer along with a request for the IP block from where you were coming. If it is working now, i suppose we can assume it to be a one time anomaly. If not, please inform me.Kevin

 

Kevin,

Nope, I still don't load the pics, neither from work nor from home. Something very odd with your hosts, yours is the only site that does this.

 

Brian

[stephan_hiller]

All,

 

I understand from this discussion and also from some older discussion that the Toroku remains in Japan when the sword is exported. However, I have quite some swords which I got straight from Japan that still had the Toroku attached to the saya. Does that mean that these swords were exported without keeping the standard process of "decommissioning" or is it possible that the sender sends the Toroku legally with the blade? I have read on ebay in some auctions from Japan that the Toroku will be retained when the sword is exported. I now wonder if you get in trouble with the sword when the Japan customs discover a sword for export with the Toroku still attached.

 

Thanks,

 

Stephan

[Guest reinhard]

. However, I have quite some swords which I got straight from Japan that still had the Toroku attached to the saya. Does that mean that these swords were exported without keeping the standard process of "decommissioning"

 

That's what it means. "Decommissioning" a sword is a time consuming process and usually done by serious dealers. Some others (not necessarily dealers), however, try shortcuts and get blades out of the country without the proper procedure.

 

BTW, where's Guido S.? Did he get lost under his removal-boxes?

 

reinhard

[Brian]

Guido is traveling a bit and heading soon for China, he'll be back shortly

Reinhard is being diplomatic I think. The honest answer is that yes, those swords exported with the torokusho attached are exported illegally. If they ever go back to Japan, I doubt they will make the connection to the old license unless it accompanies it, but I wouldn't want to chance it.

I wouldn't be happy with a sword that wasn't exported legally.

Check that what you have is the original license, as some sellers make a photocopy for the buyer..which may be confused with the original? The original should never leave Japan afaik.

 

Brian

[Bugyotsuji]

Brian, I went through the same thought processes and then realized Kevin's the one who has just arrived in Japan! :lol:

 

Good points, though. A color/colour copy of a registration certificate is hard to spot. Often the dealer will write コピーcopy on it somewhere, because if the police caught them carrying a copy with a weapon, and the copy was not clearly marked so, and they couldn't produce the original pretty damn quickly, then they would be in deep chocolate pudding.

[Guido]

BTW, where's Guido S.? Did he get lost under his removal-boxes?

Almost: 338 boxes going to China, 39 boxes to my storage in Germany, 24 boxes from my storage to China, plus 9 boxes unaccompanied air luggage, and 28 boxes for the seperate move of my daughter. I spent the last two weeks travelling in Germany, came back to Japan yesterday, and will leave for China tomorrow.

 

As to the license issue: here's the link to my sword law article. It's true that some sellers, including dealers, send swords abroad wihout the de-licensing process, but most are smart enough to destroy the license before shipping.

[Jean]

Hi Guido,

 

I was not aware you were in charge of moving Japan to China

[Bugyotsuji]

 

As to the license issue: here's the link to my sword law article. It's true that some sellers, including dealers, send swords abroad wihout the de-licensing process, but most are smart enough to destroy the license before shipping.

 

Just re-reading it slowly...

Guido, if you look at the wording of this, you can see why some people have misinterpreted it. This may even be where the rumours/rumors (quoted by Kevin above) started...

"It should be noted that the Torokusho is not a certificate of authenticity; only the length, Sori, number of Mekugi-ana and the Mei (name inscribed) are stated, whether it's authentic (Shoshin 正真) or false (Gimei å½éŠ˜)."

 

I know what you are saying, and so do we all, but someone in a rush could take that sentence to mean that... also included on the Torokusho registration form is "whether it's authentic (Shoshin 正真) or false (Gimei å½éŠ˜)".

 

If you mean what I see...

[Guido]

I'm glad that I got a step closer to (sword) world domination through misleading information. If that fails, I should at least become a politician.

 

Maybe the powers behind the "Kanji Pages" will substitute *whether* with *no matter if* to spoil my ambitious plans.

[Brian]

I thought your work involved politics anyways?

Good luck with the move Guido. I wouldn't wish that stress on anybody. Just don't show the good stuff to too many of your new countrymen, or you might find identical replicas hitting the streets minutes later.

 

Brian

[Bugyotsuji]

I'm glad that I got a step closer to (sword) world domination through misleading information. If that fails, I should at least become a politician.

 

Maybe the powers behind the "Kanji Pages" will substitute *whether* with *no matter if* to spoil my ambitious plans.

 

Oh, Guido... now I'm feeling sorry I spoke. Good luck with the move. You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din.

[Guido]

Oh, Guido... now I'm feeling sorry I spoke.

No worries, sooner or later my devilish plan would have been exposed anyhow. Maybe I should pick up Brian's idea, and become a (Renminbi) billionaire by providing quality items as templates for fakers.

[DirkO]

Hehehe, don't go over to the dark side, Guido. The only problem is, once you live there, you won't be able to sell anything on Ebay, as no one believes a Chinese nihontodealer :lol: :lol: :lol:

[KRM]

 

Just re-reading it slowly...

Guido, if you look at the wording of this, you can see why some people have misinterpreted it. This may even be where the rumours/rumors (quoted by Kevin above) started...

"It should be noted that the Torokusho is not a certificate of authenticity; only the length, Sori, number of Mekugi-ana and the Mei (name inscribed) are stated, whether it's authentic (Shoshin 正真) or false (Gimei å½éŠ˜)."

 

I know what you are saying, and so do we all, but someone in a rush could take that sentence to mean that... also included on the Torokusho registration form is "whether it's authentic (Shoshin 正真) or false (Gimei å½éŠ˜)".

 

If you mean what I see...

 

This is precisely the meaning i took from that line. From my reading, it would still appear that that is what that line is stating (reading it slowly or speedily, still reads the same to me unfortunately). So that i may keep this stuff straight in my head, can someone tell me to what the "it's", in the line "whether it's authentic (Shoshin 正真) or false (Gimei å½éŠ˜)" is referring? I'm a bit confused here.

 

Many Thanks,

Kevin

[Brian]

Simple answer as Guido explained:

"It should be noted that the Torokusho is not a certificate of authenticity; only the length, Sori, number of Mekugi-ana and the Mei (name inscribed) are written, no matter whether it is authentic (Shoshin 正真) or false (Gimei 偽銘)."

In other words, the Torokusho notes any mei that might be present on the sword, but does not indicate if it is shoshin or gimei.

 

Brian

[KRM]

Understood. Thanks for the clarification.

 

Kevin