Share your horror stories

[Hoshi]

 

I was thinking about starting a thread of Horror Stories for those who have been rolled over a barrel in unusual ways, to mix metaphors. -Piers D. 

 

Excellent idea. 

 

We've had some bits and glimpse of good horror stories recently over some of our threads. From Jean's triple hagire to Rivkin's dead Koto iron rod, I'm sure there is more to be told while keeping these others threads on topic. Bad buys, overpaying, cases of extreme buyer's regrets, collections losing all directions, hoarding tales, all these things are also interesting and could serve as lessons for the new collectors who read this forum.

 

I find we often learn more from the mistakes of others compared to their success stories, and this is something seldom shared here.

 

Write on. 

[vajo]

Two years ago i cancelled a good contact to another german nihonto collector. How does it goes. After some times i was searching for a nice Tosogu and Tsuba set for making a koshirae for a nice shinto wakizashi. I heard around and the guy offered me with a lot of bad pictures a "good" looking set of tosogu and tsuba. I asked him how much he wants for this set. He said he don't want any money but he is interested in a swap. I know that he wants a koto tanto blade and saya from my collection. I asked him for better pictures of the set and he sents me some more worse pictures and said he is not good in photography. But i can sure that these pieces are more worth that the ones what he wants from my collection.

 

In Goodwill to trust him we make the deal. After i sent him the blade and the saya i recieved the package. And i was shocked. This were the worsest pieces i ever had in hand. I called him and asked for cancelling the deal but i he said, no he never do this and i must understand that i would do the same. I would do the same? 

At this time i never contact him and sold the whole set for 50 EUR in ebay and i was pleased to forget it. But i often think on this how cruel people can act to get what they want.

 

Btw, i never was burned any time here in the community. And this knowledge is priceless.

[Curran]

From uncertain pictures, I bought a modern tsuba once.

That a horror story?

 

Price wasn't that bad. Many would call it an utsushi, but I just thought it a lump of iron.

I couldn't bring myself to sell it, didn't want it in the office as a paperweight, and I didn't have any Iaido or other practicioners local that might enjoy a 'modan' for their rig...... so I just gave it to Goodwill Store one day.

[Alex A]

Remember talking to a dealer when i first started collecting, i was on the phone to him and he had the sword in hand. I said "any flaws at all in the blade"?, he replied "no, not that i can see". A few days later the sword turns up with a fukure.

 

Had a sword turn up from Japan with rust spots in the bo-hi, that was very disappointing.

 

Once paid too much, learned a lesson.

 

For new folk to the hobby. When your talking via email about a purchase to a seller, always be very wary when the seller does not answer ALL your questions in FULL or is VAGUE, chances are you might raise an eyebrow (to say the least), when your sword turns up.

[Rivkin]

Where to begin...

Mainline Goto Menuki which turned out to be a similar item, but clearly different in details from the one photographed in the attached papers. 

 

The worst by far however was a blade with very high papers, big name, sold at a considerable discount to what such papers tend to command - and a realization that is boring as hell. And obviously when trying to bring back to seller you are told that the sword market is extraordinary bad and well you had a great deal when bought it, but that was a week ago.

 

Lesson learned - mid Kamakura Bizen/Fukuoka/etc in suguha with few exceptions, Heian in suguha, all those Ukai, Rai for me are in 99% of cases turn out to be boring, single day study swords, which also can easily be somewhat to Very tired even at the highest levels of paper kingdom, were they are also commonly encountered - and are almost of no value to me. In suguha I can enjoy Shintogo Kunimitsu, Ko Aoe, some Oei Bizen, sort of like Nosada or Hizen Tadayoshi and that's about it. For the rest comparing to Soshu or Hatakeda-Moriie everything looks pale, dim and basically boring. Really not that different from a non-Japanese 10th century sword in Japanese polish, if one fancies such experiments and has a highly uncommon access to very good condition examples. For me aside from the few schools, one can find funner, more artistic and if one desires - more bloodied things to collect in non-Japanese world at lower prices.

 

So I learned that my preferences in nihonto are very narrow. Consequence - also learned that reliance on paper level in nihonto is also not a good fit for me.

BTW general result - one learns on average more from unexpected (and often bad) experience compared to cases where everything goes as planned.

 

Kirill R.

[Ken-Hawaii]

I had a sword heading to me from the EU that was opened by somebody en route. Not only were there new rust fingerprints, but the blade was also jammed into the shirasaya, backwards! The packaging looked fine when it arrived, so you can imagine my (& the seller's) horror when I opened the box! I contacted him immediately, including photos, & the only reason I got a full refund is that the automated delivery time & date were just minutes apart from when I sent him the message & photos.

[ChrisW]

I feel like sword thieves ought to be run through with the sword they steal. If they want it so bad, they can 'have it'.    

[Grey Doffin]

My horror story is a dream I've had at least 3 times.  I get home form a show with a sword I've spent gobs of money on, then to learn that it is a tsunagi (wooden filler blade) and (it gets better) it is made of plywood.  Any other Nihonto nightmares out there?

Grey

[Blazeaglory]

My horror story is a dream I've had at least 3 times. I get home form a show with a sword I've spent gobs of money on, then to learn that it is a tsunagi (wooden filler blade) and (it gets better) it is made of plywood. Any other Nihonto nightmares out there?

Grey

That's deep! Totally Freudian! ????????

[Hoshi]

Great contributions so far. Some very scary tales in here, especially the sword thieves. Special mention to Ken with his sword shoved upside down in the Shirasaya following custom controls. This is one which will haunt me. 

 

I don't have any good ones to share yet. So far, the worst that happened to me is overpaying in an auction because I got swooped in by the value proposition and became greedy. While I can't say it won't happen again in the future, next time I'll be sure to:

 

1. Set proper hard limits based on opportunity costs of acquiring other items.

2. Don't blindly go for 'deals' as in bottom of the barrel work from a great maker which end up as problem pieces. 

3. If you don't trust yourself to stand with hard limits then have someone else place bid for you

 

Auctions are hard. Especially when you have just a few moments to decide before the auctioneer moves on. The decision process gets blurry and the temptation is high to 'win' despite it making little financial sense. It draws you in. 

 

The problem with greed is that the easiest way it gets trigger is by bottom of the barrel stuff. Top stuff is priced so high, that even if the value proposition is great, you just won't identify it unless you're an expert with this particular maker and had a chance to inspect it hands on. Bottom on the barrel stuff just jumps out of the picture because you've simply never, or rarely seen work that cheap which happens to look just like these others which were sold for more. That's a fallacy and where I got burned. 

[Surfson]

Well, one of my worst was paying way too much on ebay for a sword that looked for sure like fukuoka ichimonji.  Obviously, at least one other bidder thought the same....   Anyway, I had it restored and it papered to Tameyasu, the Kii Ishido founder, not a bad name, but he worked in the shinto period.  Sadly, a big blister opened up during the polish.  So my fukuoka ichimonji "score" turned into an osuriage mumei shinto with a big flaw.   I couldn't stand to look at it and sold it for about $6000 less than I had into it.  

[16k]

Horror story, but nothing like yours, about being conned or anything.

 

Two months back, I bought the Sengo Ray was selling. Now, Sengo leads to Muramasa leads to evil sword legends and all.

 

So the box is there, I don’t want any bad surprises or damaging anything. I open it on the bed. If there’s any fall, at least it won’t do harm. I remove the Saya and marvel at the blade,I take some rubbing alcohol to wipe the oil, my right hand reaches the Kissaki and I don’t know how, the tip slides from my right fingers and gives me a deep cut, millimeters only from the artery. I still have a scar today!

 

So, I guess legends have a hint of truth! :lol:

[Jean]

Do not mistake clumsiness with Karma, JP

[16k]

Unless my karma is to be clumsy!

[Blazeaglory]

The very tip of my Edo Wakizashi broke off and became stuck in saya and made long scratches along the Ha

 

Not very noticeable but in the right light, you can see.Luckily its only in the Ha on one side only and not deep, so maybe can be fixed with a polish of Ha only with those certain little finger stones? Otherwise the rest of blade is in old polish and looks good. But just knowing it happened is really painful !

[Hoshi]

I always thought the practice about sliding the blade in Shirasaya while touching only the mune was meant to prevent tiny scratches. I never thought one can break off your tip on the wood and then have a razor sharp piece of steel ready to grind a new Bo Hi on your blade as you slide it in and out. That's another one which will haunt me... 

[Bugyotsuji]

One example. Part I

 

A couple of years ago and really out of the blue, my youngest daughter asked me to keep an eye out for a Tanto for her. We shared a secret passion for fast cars and she worked at an after-market parts company, but I had no idea that she liked Nihonto too.

 

My first thought was that maybe I would leave her in my will one of my sleepers, but since I have centuries of life ahead of me, she would have had a long wait. 

 

She added that she would respect whatever I chose for her. Pressure time...

 

Towards the end of last year I found a Tanto at an antiques stall at a famous market in Japan. The whole package ticked a ream of boxes, although it had a strange temporary bamboo mekugi attaching through one side of the tsuka only. 

 

Those boxes then.

The blade was not Choji flowery beautiful to look at but a sweet suguha, signed Sukesada, a name that attracts me, and the whole shape and structure shouted Koto, late 1400s, early 1500s, Sue Bizen. Registration certificate looked legit for the blade. My daughter grew up in this area, so here was a link to her childhood.

The Koshirae was in stunningly good condition, with handachi fuchi-kashira fittings, a brown lacquer saya and samehada tsuka with large Ibo/hoshi.  Nice Menuki, a small sweet Tsuba and and solid gold seppa. 

 

A famous martial arts Sensei that I know fairly well was walking past so I grabbed him. He said it looked good to him, and then added that he had a friendly polisher who could bring it up nicely for a very reasonable sum.

 

I haggled a bit with the dealer, and we agreed on a price that did not displease him, and within minutes I had handed it over to the Sensei, after which I lost sight of it for a month or so.

 

Yes, I know, 'this is boring!', 'say something interesting!', but give me time to collect my old thoughts. (Sucks on battered old pipe, and slowly exhales....) Thanks for starting this thread, Chris. (Just got out of hospital, so this is my first offering.)

[Bugyotsuji]

Part II

 

One day in early January the guy reappears and hands me back the Tanto, so I slide over the 'very reasonable sum' for his polisher. He knows of the 'daughter' project so he gives me some solid gold fittings to replace the slightly sad and ordinary ones in the Kurigata. I thanked him profusely and took the blade home where I made a perfect one sided push-type mekugi, just to complete the whole thing. Mmmmm... 

 

Proudly I carry the blade to my sword teacher's home and tell him of my adventures and plans for the blade. He nods, slides it out of the sheath and holds it up to the light. Silence takes over. My heart pounds. 'Piers San' he says, returning it to the sheath, 'I do not think this blade is worthy of your daughter. You should find something better.'

 

It turns out that despite all of the eyes that have passed over this blade, including mine    they have seen only the good aspects, and missed one. Yes it was Koto and yes it was Bizen Sukesada. But, the blade had been bent at some point, and subsequently straightened out. 'How do you know?' I asked. 'Look here, you can see the vertical stretch marks.' Well, yes, if you look hard, grrrrrr...........

 

But you cannot unknow what you once know. My problem now was how to unload this blade without incurring too much of a loss, and without 'fooling' any individual. Luckily there was enough value in the fittings alone to carry it most of the way, I reckoned.

 

In the end I put it into auction and a famous dealer bought it. Hee hee hee, a guy who has made me pay dearly in the past. Naturally I lost money on the whole project, and he got a stunning Koshirae, but it was a great learning curve.

 

To add insult to injury, I found a delightful Tanto recently and reluctantly sent photos of it to my daughter. Her reply?

 

"Nah, I don't like black lacquer with silver fittings (Inaba). I much prefer the other one you showed me at the beginning of this year!" 

 

Grrrr.......... but at least I get to keep a beauty.  

[16k]

Grrrr.......... but at least I get to keep a beauty.  

You mean your daughter, I hope!

 

Great story!

[Bugyotsuji]

Oh, and a quick shot of the offending area.

The blade is a little tired, sure, but I had thought it would be good enough as a first blade for one’s ‘didn’t orter’.

[Surfson]

Painful story Piers, and glad to hear you are feeling better.

Would you call those stretch marks "shinai"?  

[Bugyotsuji]

Not sure of the correct terminology Robert.
The marks are only obvious one side. But the polisher did tell my friend (after polishing it) to tell me that I should consider the blade only as a tsunagi (or shinai 竹刀), i.e. just an insert to support the koshirae. This puzzled me slightly, as with the Mei and age it was much, much more to me than a ‘bamboo blade’.

Later the martial arts Sensei asked me with a puzzled look why I had sold such a lovely-looking object, at a loss, not counting the added cost of polishing! Now as my reason returns I am beginning to think that maybe I should have kept it.

[Surfson]

I have one or two "steel tsunagi" (i.e. bad swords that hold together great koshirae).  Best not to think of this experience any more Piers!  

[Gakusee]

Piers,

Firstly, I do hope you are well and recuperating. I wish you swift convalescence.

Next, I personally cannot tell from the blurry photo what the condition of the blade is. Shinae are not such a bad flaw as to discard a blade meant as a present to someone who does not know the nitty gritty of blades and would instead have focused on the overall package, and the koshirae in particular. Shinae are not fatal.

 

Could it be that your sensei assumed it was meant as a wedding present to your daughter (tanto often are), and as such it should have been “perfect”, whilst your actual intention was “merely” a keepsake?

[Bugyotsuji]

Michael, thank you for the wishes, for the correct word 'shinae', and for your thoughts which have have triggered further ruminations and landslides inside me. 

*I took out the central section of a larger photo, so apologies for the (somewhat deliberate) poor quality.

[Bugyotsuji]

Example 2. 

 

Last year in the infamous search for my daughter's blessed Tanto I came across a small late Muromachi yoroi-doshi in black lacquer aikuchi koshirae with gold kamon. Yum yum.  The registration card said it was signed by a member of the Umetada group, which set the old ticker racing.

The dealer wanted less than USD 3,000 for it, so I thought long and hard within the short window that it was presented, and moved into bargaining mode. (The dealer had offered it at auction but then withdrawn as it had not reached his desired price.) I started at the final offer and raised the price in increments hoping that he would eventually meet me half-way.  He would not budge an inch though, until I had approached twice the withdrawn final offer. Well, to be fair he did eventually offer 5% off, which I accepted. A lot of money for me, and a gamble, but it was an interesting object to take home and after all, how many Muromachi yoroidoshi are there kicking around?

 

Later on. My sword teacher slipped it out and held it up to the light. Silence pervaded. I held my breath. 'Gimei', he said, slipping it back into the sheath. I forced him to say more. 'The blade is genuine late Muromachi, Seki school', he said. 'But the incised Mei is slightly younger, i.e. does not exactly fit the style or age of the blade.'

 

A younger friend who deals in swords advised me to send it for Shinsa, as 'no-one is perfect and you still have a real chance of getting it papered'. Well, I bit the bullet and sent it off and forgot about it for a while. To my chagrin, it came back Gimei, together with another lovely suguha Tomomitsu wakizashi that everyone I trusted had assured me would pass with flying colours. Ouch! Ouch!

 

I dropped into the dealer's shop (another dealer) to collect them both, and poured out my story. He laid out some possible escape routes for me.

A. One involved selling it outright to him immediately at half-price, actually equivalent to the last offer that had been made at the auction.

B. Option two was to send it off and have the Mei magically disappear, leaving a respectable Mumei yoroidoshi, but it would cost extra, above the blade and the Shinsa costs, to have the erasure done professionally. Hmmmm.... I imagine the cash stacking up. Quite a lay-out.  Also to tell the truth I was not 100% happy with the Mon on the Koshirae which were beginning to look younger than I had thought at first glance.

 

Right, to tie this up, I sold it to him then and there and retired to lick my wounds, @ a loss of well of 1,300 dollars. 

 

Lessons learned after having been rolled over the old barrel? Well, most of our members are already laughing at me, so you can figure them out, but I was beginning to form internal rules for messing around with Nihonto if you do not want to get your fingers cut, er... burnt.

 

PS A month or so back I saw a very similar blade in black koshirae and picked it up out of curiosity. The Mon were different, and the nakago was Mumei with 'innocent' black rust. 

 

But, one does wonder. 

[Blazeaglory]

I always thought the practice about sliding the blade in Shirasaya while touching only the mune was meant to prevent tiny scratches. I never thought one can break off your tip on the wood and then have a razor sharp piece of steel ready to grind a new Bo Hi on your blade as you slide it in and out. That's another one which will haunt me... 

 

 

Thats what I was told anyways. Dunno if I believe it because if put away properly, the hamon/ha should not come in contact with the wood right?

[Blazeaglory]

Example 2. 

 

Last year in the infamous search for my daughter's blessed Tanto I came across a small late Muromachi yoroi-doshi in black lacquer aikuchi koshirae with gold kamon. Yum yum.  The registration card said it was signed by a member of the Umetada group, which set the old ticker racing.

The dealer wanted less than USD 3,000 for it, so I thought long and hard within the short window that it was presented, and moved into bargaining mode. (The dealer had offered it at auction but then withdrawn as it had not reached his desired price.) I started at the final offer and raised the price in increments hoping that he would eventually meet me half-way.  He would not budge an inch though, until I had approached twice the withdrawn final offer. Well, to be fair he did eventually offer 5% off, which I accepted. A lot of money for me, and a gamble, but it was an interesting object to take home and after all, how many Muromachi yoroidoshi are there kicking around?

 

Later on. My sword teacher slipped it out and held it up to the light. Silence pervaded. I held my breath. 'Gimei', he said, slipping it back into the sheath. I forced him to say more. 'The blade is genuine late Muromachi, Seki school', he said. 'But the incised Mei is slightly younger, i.e. does not exactly fit the style or age of the blade.'

 

A younger friend who deals in swords advised me to send it for Shinsa, as 'no-one is perfect and you still have a real chance of getting it papered'. Well, I bit the bullet and sent it off and forgot about it for a while. To my chagrin, it came back Gimei, together with another lovely suguha Tomomitsu wakizashi that everyone I trusted had assured me would pass with flying colours. Ouch! Ouch!

 

I dropped into the dealer's shop (another dealer) to collect them both, and poured out my story. He laid out some possible escape routes for me.

A. One involved selling it outright to him immediately at half-price, actually equivalent to the last offer that had been made at the auction.

B. Option two was to send it off and have the Mei magically disappear, leaving a respectable Mumei yoroidoshi, but it would cost extra, above the blade and the Shinsa costs, to have the erasure done professionally. Hmmmm.... I imagine the cash stacking up. Quite a lay-out.  Also to tell the truth I was not 100% happy with the Mon on the Koshirae which were beginning to look younger than I had thought at first glance.

 

Right, to tie this up, I sold it to him then and there and retired to lick my wounds, @ a loss of well of 1,300 dollars. 

 

Lessons learned after having been rolled over the old barrel? Well, most of our members are already laughing at me, so you can figure them out, but I was beginning to form internal rules for messing around with Nihonto if you do not want to get your fingers cut, er... burnt.

 

PS A month or so back I saw a very similar blade in black koshirae and picked it up out of curiosity. The Mon were different, and the nakago was Mumei with 'innocent' black rust. 

 

But, one does wonder. 

 

I think I would rather have a good blade that is Gimei (that could be removed) than a tanto that was bent and then fixed. Just piece of mind I guess. But a good Yoroi-doshi would be awesome to have. That is next on my list of "wanted" Nihonto

 

At least you are wiser for the next purchase anyways!

[Bugyotsuji]

Dwain, here in Japan they jokingly call these incidental expenses 授業料 Jugyo-Ryo, or educational fees. 

[Blazeaglory]

Dwain, here in Japan they jokingly call these incidental expenses 授業料 Jugyo-Ryo, or educational fees. 

Very well said!