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Beautiful tsuba, but who is Touryuusai? is it a modern tsuba?

terminus

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Curran Grand Master

Curran

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Google brought me to Sesko's book on tsuba genealogies. Also this tsuba from nihontocraft. The Tanaka Toryusai school… sure you can find more with a little searching. Don't think this is modern.

 

Thanks for handling it Gabriel.

It does bring to mind the question of what is the most recent fitting that has papered?

 

I've seen NBTHK Hozon on a 2012 blade. Don't ask me for the link, as I didn't save it.

I've been a bit surprised how frequently the NBTHK is papering some 21st century blades.

In my lifetime will I see NBTHK papers on the fittings of artists that I knew?

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terminus Community Regular

terminus

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Google brought me to Sesko's book on tsuba genealogies. Also this tsuba from nihontocraft. The Tanaka Toryusai school… sure you can find more with a little searching. Don't think this is modern.

aww, thank you! the extra "u"s in the way they spelled "Touryuusai" gave no results on google so I was stumped for a bit.

 

Looking at the Toryusai school works, this one is slightly different in style. It looks so modern possibly because of the condition it's in, frankly at first glance I thought it may have been one of Ford's or Marcus's or Kevin's work. 

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Curran Grand Master

Curran

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Please to remember author of tsuba must be in afterlife to achieve sacred recognition of honorable truth sayers of NBTHK...

 

Dr. Lao (aka Apollonius of Tyana)

 

Well, yes...

...but other sensitive issues arise. To put it one way:   Any NBTHK papers on a Keith Austin blade yet?

terminus Community Regular

terminus

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Inlays yes, gold, silver, shibuichi, copper, on a shakudo ground.

 

-S-

Everytime I think "inlay" I think of objects "popping" out of the surface while this tsuba doesn't really have much so I'm confused where the inlays are.

 

Are those gold leaves gold inlays? are those flowers silver and copper inlays? since the colored areas look almost painted to the untrained eye (like mine). 

 

 

Frank B Community Regular

Frank B

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Everytime I think "inlay" I think of objects "popping" out of the surface while this tsuba doesn't really have much so I'm confused where the inlays are.

Are those gold leaves gold inlays? are those flowers silver and copper inlays? since the colored areas look almost painted to the untrained eye (like mine).

 

 

Steven is correct here

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TETSUGENDO Grand Master

TETSUGENDO

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Terminus,

 

The inlays are set into the shakudo plate of the tsuba and finished flush with the surface, all the various colors(alloys) you see are inlaid.

 

-S-

p.s.- Terminus, please add your first name and last initial(optional) to the bottom of your posts so we can address you properly.

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Frank B Community Regular

Frank B

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Posted (edited)

Well, yes...

...but other sensitive issues arise. To put it one way: Any NBTHK papers on a Keith Austin blade yet?

That'd be very interesting to see in the future. He did train under a mukansa rated Smith.

Edited by Frank Gorelik
Curran Grand Master

Curran

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Posted

That'd be very interesting to see in the future. He did train under a mukansa rated Smith.

 

Yes. Still, technically a foreigner. This topic certainly has some history in those who know Sumo wrestling.

 

With blades, they are now papering up to the 21st century recently deceased. They certainly weren't when I started collecting. But foreign smiths?

 

As for fittings-  they still seem hesitant to paper 1930s mumei tsuba, even if the artist wrote a hakogaki for it and published a book in 1940 where he talked about making the tsuba. Guy wasn't well known. Other than that Higo fellow (Yonemitsu?), any modern fittings makers getting NBTHK papers? When Issei Naruki passes on, will his tsuba merit NBTHK papers? Yoshindo Yoshihara's tsuba? It will become more an issue with some of the talented non Japanese fittings makers.

terminus Community Regular

terminus

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Terminus,

 

The inlays are set into the shakudo plate of the tsuba and finished flush with the surface, all the various colors(alloys) you see are inlaid.

 

-S-

p.s.- Terminus, please add your first name and last initial(optional) to the bottom of your posts so we can address you properly.

Thanks for explaining that Steve! I'm new to the whole tsuba arts & craft, but after watching Ford's vids on youtube and reading some history here and there...it's insane the amount of work and detail put into them. This tsuba for example, it's hard to believe the maker took the time and precision to inlay each color for the leaves and flowers and then file it flush, wow!

 

-Tony

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Nikanoru Community Regular

Nikanoru

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Imho, the above f-k details do not look inlaid (suemon-zogan, "to set-in, to lay-in a pattern/design"), it's a takabori (high relief). And takabori is not a technique, it's a description of the item/motif made by embossing (uchidashi), inlay (suemon-zogan) or carving the ground plate (sukidashi-bori).

TETSUGENDO Grand Master

TETSUGENDO

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Tony,

 

Thank you, anytime.   Ford's videos are a unique learning tool, you can't do any better.  I suggest you check out www.followingtheironbrush.org, also his Facebook page....if you haven't already.

 

Cheers,

    -S-

vajo Grand Master

vajo

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Beautifull Tsuba, i wish i had it. Look at this wonderfull blossom on the back side. It looks like a painting. Great Tsuba.

For me i would turn the Tsuba with the backside on front mounting on a sword. That looks so nice.

 

It looks meji for me or very late edo.

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terminus Community Regular

terminus

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So I know it the mei says Toryusai, but does anyone else think this tsuba does not look like anything from the Tanaka Toryusai school? https://www.mfa.org/collections/search?f%5B0%5D=field_artists%253Afield_artist%3A923

 

From the flush inlay work and smooth base surface it looks vastly different from the tsubas in the MFA for Tanaka school. I guess their repertoire of skills and style is just really diverse.

rkg Mentor

rkg

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aww, thank you! the extra "u"s in the way they spelled "Touryuusai" gave no results on google so I was stumped for a bit.

 

Looking at the Toryusai school works, this one is slightly different in style. It looks so modern possibly because of the condition it's in, frankly at first glance I thought it may have been one of Ford's or Marcus's or Kevin's work. 

Well... that's a can of worms - there are several different romaji "systems", the trouble is that the one us gaijin seem to use all the time "toryusai" isn't really in any of them - I'm as guilty of it as the next guy, but I'm working on it, really...

登竜斎 = とうりゅうさい = touryuusai.... 

 

Edit:

 

or... tōryūsai  (Thanks Jussi...), or...

 

I'm actually no longer a big Hepburn system fan, as its kinda hard to find all those macron-ed vowels on a standard keyboard (hot keys or alt-strings all the time... Give me a Break...) - I'm turning into more of a fan of the Wāpuro system which the original poster used/is used a lot anime/manga fanpeople use as it (IMHO) it preserves the "spelling" the best so it is fast to convert back to/from the hiragana/katakana (what, you're trying not to search in Japanese?... :-) ),  and 2)  even with the extra characters its faster to type because you're not having to figure out how to generate the macron-ed characters..

 

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)

Jussi Ekholm Veteran

Jussi Ekholm

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I think correct form would be one Markus used in his listing 東竜斎 - Tōryūsai.

 

The Hozon paper actually states, mumei (kaō) (Tōryūsai school) - 無銘 (花押) (東竜斎派)

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TETSUGENDO Grand Master

TETSUGENDO

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As far as the appearance of this work, as Chris noted this is a late Tanaka piece, the major influences here are the Natsuo and Otsuki schools.  All three schools are interrelated and, to one extent or another, played off each other...more so as the century drew to a close.

 

-S-

Curran Grand Master

Curran

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 this is a late Tanaka piece, the major influences here are the Natsuo and Otsuki schools.

 

-S-

 

I'd say very late, as in 1900-1930s.

That is just gut instinct, based upon the workmanship and a lot of the sort of things exported commercially from Japan at that time.

 

SO....., nobody going to do the leg work of pulling up all the known 東竜斎 students and searching for a kao match in Haynes?

Quite doable legwork, and a basic skill worth doing now and then.

rkg Mentor

rkg

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I'd say very late, as in 1900-1930s.

That is just gut instinct, based upon the workmanship and a lot of the sort of things exported commercially from Japan at that time.

 

SO....., nobody going to do the leg work of pulling up all the known 東竜斎 students and searching for a kao match in Haynes?

Quite doable legwork, and a basic skill worth doing now and then.

 

Actually the better question is why did the NBTHK did not bother to look it up..

 

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)

terminus Community Regular

terminus

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I'd say very late, as in 1900-1930s.

That is just gut instinct, based upon the workmanship and a lot of the sort of things exported commercially from Japan at that time.

 

SO....., nobody going to do the leg work of pulling up all the known 東竜斎 students and searching for a kao match in Haynes?

Quite doable legwork, and a basic skill worth doing now and then.

I would like to know too! it'll be great to know who the actual crafts person is...also because I may just buy this one lol. 

Frank B Community Regular

Frank B

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I would like to know too! it'll be great to know who the actual crafts person is...also because I may just buy this one lol.

 

 

 

 

I would be wary of the patina issues. Its a decent amount for such a "young" tsuba

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