Artist "Ratings"

[Fred Geyer]

David,

 

''Your funny like a little kid" why would I care about your semester......have 18 patents by age 40 and retire at age 41 then I would consider you smart.

 

Fred    

[Frank B]

I think we've veered slightly off topic.

[Hoshi]

18 patents is on the low side to really get the field. Tbh you can't understand Tosogu aesthetic without a PhD in computational neuroscience. It's just the way it is I'm not going to even argue. 

[Frank B]

It was good while it lasted.

[Fred Geyer]

Frank

 

You are right back on topic

 

Chris above comment ..perfect ...your comment at 2:52 is 100% right on, I will add one thing to your post yesterday just becouse the item has the artists name on it does NOT mean they 100% made it even with NBTHK papers. This then makes the new person fall into the dealer pit again of unloading stuff because they are buying papers. This is a entirely new topic but one that is needed, if we can keep this one going.!!!!

 

But to go back to original discussion no one can say there is not an "Order" of the artists in Japan you can have a great kozuka that is laid next to a average work by the artist who is higher in this order and the better kozuka will not go Juyo because they are not ranked.    

 

Fred          

[Brian]

Hmmmm

[Hoshi]

Lets get back on track... 

 

This is also why I think there is more room for ladder shuffling in Tosogu compared to swords. Some students of the big masters and more obscure Goto lines have been sidelined in my opinion. It would require a tall collection specialized in these underdogs to really make the case, but it's possible and there is much more room to do it than with swords.

 

As an example, Goto Seijo got completely dumpstered by Goto Ichijo and his incredible pupils and had to compete in the time of Natsuo, Ishiguro, Omori and all around unbelievable talent. Meiji and pre-Meiji is just an explosion of artistic talent and its hard to keep track of it all. Unearthing the custom orders he or his students got and making a tall collection out of it could arguably cause some shuffling in the middle tier of that era if high quality work is found. Some of his work in iron especially great and unique design, such as this evil bald dragon. But as it stands it will never go Juyo. 

 

Regarding the student work, it's risky. A snowflake tsuba signed by Goto Ichijo is basically a serial production work which doesn't come close in value to his realistic work. While these are designed by Goto Ichijo at a very advanced age, I think the actual execution is student work. While I do find these works to be highly aesthetically enjoyable, it just doesn't come close in value to Ichijo's carved tsuba in his earlier, more realistic style. I think someone called it his Andy Warhol phase and I quite like that. There is also a case to be made that he did make poor work on the occasion. For instance I struggle to believe that this comes from him and that the signature is authentic, I'd take a snowflake tsuba over this one anyday. 

 

What are other cases of students working as the master that one needs to watch out for? 

[Ford Hallam]

As has been already demonstrated its self evidently true that there does exist in various forms a variety of so called ranking systems for tosogu artists is Japan.

 

Putting aside, for a moment, any trade or commercial considerations and addressing solely the artistic and aesthetic question I would 

suggest that it's worth noting that nothing as simplistic as this sort of ranking system exists in the Western classical music tradition, or any other that I know of.

 

Similarly an educated person would regard as puerile any attempt to rank the great painters of the past.

 

A moments reflection on the reasons as to why we don't have league tables with Da Vinci, Rembrandt and van Gogh battling it out to be in the premier division illustrates just how subjective and artificial the Tosogu situation really is, and additionally completely muddies any meaningful appreciation of all of the many forms and styles of metal art within that tradition.

[John A Stuart]

Critics. Those that can't create art themselves. Ford, you are right for the most part. Art is subjective, but, there are objective criteria as well. Primitive or naïve art like Grandma Moses has objectively little to compare to Rembrandt in that there was no formal apprenticeship, but, subjectively can be appreciated for its representational qualities. We see it from time to time with tousogu and label these as folk or country work. Indeed though artificial ranking of ability is obscure. John

[Pete Klein]

[Fred Geyer]

All,  OK here are the boys I am after ...put them in your order !

 

Umetada

Kiyotoshi

Ichijo

Eijo

Joshin

Sojo

Teijo

Yujo

Tomei

Denbei

Tou

Teruhide

Shomin

Kanie

Noriyuki

Kenjo

Konkwan

Jochiku

Joi

Jinpo

Teijo

Toshinaga

Tomotsune

Nagatsune

Naoshige

Nakanori

Natsuo

Nobuie

Hikizo

Shozui

Masatsune

Matashichi

Mitsuoki

Mitsuchika

Mitsunobu

Somin

Yasuchika

Yamakichibe

Rakuju

Hogen

[Fred Geyer]

by the way these are not in my order, all of these if made by the master can go Juyo

 

Fred  

[Curran]

All,  OK here are the boys I am after ...put them in your order !

 

Umetada

Kiyotoshi

Ichijo

Eijo

Joshin

Sojo

Teijo

Yujo

Tomei

Denbei

Tou

Teruhide

Shomin

Kanie

Noriyuki

Kenjo

Konkwan

Jochiku

Joi

Jinpo

Teijo

Toshinaga

Tomotsune

Nagatsune

Naoshige

Nakanori

Natsuo

Nobuie

Hikizo

Shozui

Masatsune

Matashichi

Mitsuoki

Mitsuchika

Mitsunobu

Somin

Yasuchika

Yamakichibe

Rakuju

Hogen

 

No Jinbei?

Harsh.

 

Killer list. I'm often left buying the best of their students.

[Vermithrax16]

I felt bad about my post on this thread last night and didn't want to make a bigger mess of it. That said............

 

Fred, an excellent list, it's all the top level makers of all time. Different styles. Juyo level as you noted. Teruhide and Ichijo have examples I have seen that made me about pass out from the wonder of them. Assume most of the rest do as well. Unless old iron, just never caught the bug. 

 

I have to see a particular work for me to get interested. I like to be told a story. A tsuba may well be Juyo (seen many examples) but unless it motivates me in some way, or inspires me, it's just a nice work. I can appreciate history, smith lines, and the workmanship (ranking!) without a particular piece speaking to me. This was what I was trying to say clumsily last night. Sometimes you react and feel an attachment to a piece, for me it's usually by a story (I am a huge reader).

 

Maybe an example.

 

This Harumitsu tsuba was on auction a while ago. When I did my homework (found a similar artwork) on the motif I was just blown away by the story being told:

 

"This six-panel Japanese folding screen depicts tigers crossing a river, inspired by an ancient Chinese legend: if a mother tiger gives birth to three cubs, it was believed that one is always a leopard (hyo). She has to be careful when crossing a river not to leave the ferocious hyo alone with the other cubs."

 

Sadly, I was unable to secure this piece (It was displayed at the Berlin Samurai Museum recently) but I regret that to this day. The work is nice. It's not Juyo, maybe not even TH, but that I think about it to this day means something to me. The rabbit tsuba in my profile pic is much the same, it has a story to tell, and it captivates me.

 

And so to tie it all in I think chasing makers (swords or fittings) is fine, it's a free hobby, but to lay down a line saying only these makers, this era, this school is the best and only thing worth going after is going to miss pieces and works that may well touch someone. In then end, is that not what we are trying to do? Find things that inspire and lift us up?

 

I am not saying buy eBay crap or fakes, but if it's special to you go wild. I would think my message should be clear by this point. 

 

Anyways, sorry for long post and if Darcy still has this Omori Eiman for sale for much longer don't know how to pass on it........any riverman knows carp. Robert Boyd would understand the love for the monsters:

 

 

 

 

[Fred Geyer]

we all get tsuba we like ..not to go juyo... but the original was best smiths "rating"   

 

Omori is gone you are to late was a very good tsuba...but Darcy has that a lot !

 

 

Fred 

[Vermithrax16]

we all get tsuba we like ..not to go juyo... but the original was best smiths "rating"   

 

Omori is gone you are to late was a very good tsuba...but Darcy has that a lot !

 

 

Fred 

I was to late or too late in either case glad it sold. Excellent work. 

[Hoshi]

Jeremiah, 

 

Most will argue that how a theme resonates with the viewer is one of those immanent qualities of art. It is the purely idiosyncratic facet of art which cannot be understood outside of the beholder's experience. This view dominates contemporary art theory, and it is, deeply, deeply wrong.  

 

There are universal stories that keep being told and elicit, at least within a sub-sample of the population, a similar aesthetic response because it resonates with something so deep it is in fine, encoded in our genome. This is my epistemic stance on Art. Art encodes through metaphors things which cannot be articulated but resonate as universal truths to the beholder. As a famous poet put it, Truth is Beauty, Beauty is Truth. This is all one needs to know. 

 

Our response to Art is not some product of pure subjectivity through socialization, but a very powerful emotion which is universally shared and serves a deep and misunderstood evolutionary purpose in a Darwinian sense. I believe it to be one of the fundamental drivers of meme-gene co-evolution and the reason humanity has evolved stable equilibrium in societies. 

 

This is the case for the story of the tiger mum. It's the story of the cursed son who turns to evil in times of dire danger, it's told across cultures in different ways. 

[Pete Klein]

Great list - of the most faked makers.  Caveat emptor!

[Frank B]

Great list - of the most faked makers.  Caveat emptor!

True, but we aren't talking about fakes.

[Pete Klein]

"True, but we aren't talking about fakes".

 

But - I am.  A public service reminder to the uninitiated that the bigger the 'name' the more likely it is to be a gimei/fake.  Due diligence is in order - be careful!

 

We will now resume our regularly scheduled programming...

[Hoshi]

How about Ishiguro Masayoshi? Why leave him out? He ranks top 10 among the Kings of Bling and Glory. 

 

What I like about the really top level stuff, is that you just can't fake it. If you see the real thing, the skill level is simply so high that the cost of producing a quality fake was just beyond the means of the fakers. For things like Omori waves you can get fooled, but Ishiguro Hawks and Pheasants, there is simply no way on earth. These guys were top of the world and some of the Tokuju pieces are to die for. 

 

Nobuie on the other hand requires a very well trained eye and a fine feel for old iron to tease apart good fakes... 

[Frank B]

"True, but we aren't talking about fakes".

 

But - I am.  A public service reminder to the uninitiated that the bigger the 'name' the more likely it is to be a gimei/fake.  Due diligence is in order - be careful!

 

 

We will now resume our regularly scheduled programming...

You're right, always have to be cautious

[Fred Geyer]

What I like about the really top level stuff, is that you just can't fake it. If you see the real thing, the skill level is simply so high that the cost of producing a quality fake was just beyond the means of the fakers. For things like Omori waves you can get fooled, but Ishiguro Hawks and Pheasants, there is simply no way on earth. These guys were top of the world and some of the Tokuju pieces are to die for. 

 

 

 

Not a truer statement made, even with Omori once you have seen the best "my above list" and study in hand the finest of detail the weight and depth of the skill they had in metal is just over the top and very hard to copy as noted by Chris.  Come on Pete the negativity  

 

Fred     

[Surfson]

What a fun thread.   I even enjoyed the "pissing" contest!