Artist "Ratings"

[Frank B]

Were ratings for artist ie. ryoko, joko, meiko, meijin contextual like sword ratings? By contextual meaning by time frame and skill of other artists during said time. Similar to how a jo-saku smith from a good school in nanbokucho, is usually more desirable than a jo-saku smith working in shinshinto. It's not possible to merely rank hundreds of years of artists merely by a title. I was wondering if anyone had any insight to how the kinko meikan gave such rankings.  

 

Thank you 

[TETSUGENDO]

Frank,

 

Interesting question.  Contextual of course, highly subjective absolutely.  I find the whole concept amorphous and pointless at best, absurd and laughable at its worst.  For the uninformed it offers order, something eagerly sought, but the security in offers is largely false.

 

-S-

[rkg]

Frank,

 

I've always been fascinated with trying to find a listing of what people called various styles/groups/etc of tosogu and what popular opinion was of each prior to Wakayama's (re)classification of everything to make for easier sales.

 

Markus Sesko published an article a while back on a (probably late) Edo banzuke style ranking of tsuba makers -this is fascinating because it gives you insight into what was popular at that time:

 

https://markussesko.com/2016/10/02/banzuke-%E7%95%AA%E4%BB%98/

 

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)

[Curran]

I could spend a very long vacation sabbatical catching up on all the brilliant things Markus has written and I have somehow missed reading.

It would be a good vacation.

 

RKG-  Thank you for posting this.

Best read of the morning, during daily hour of morning reads.

[Soshin]

Notice how highly regarded all Nanban tsuba are on Edo banzuke style ranking of tsuba makers.  I noticed this the first time I read Markus blog post.  The listing for them is on the upper left corner of the paper.  In regard to Frank questions I thinking it is basically pointless and a bit counterproductive in my opinion.  Note that this hasn't stop people from this doing as far back as the Edo Period for likely commercial purposes.  My approach since 2001 has been to try and study as many things (authentic Japanese swords and sword fittings) and just collect what I like which may or may not be what's popular.  Time to get back to job search and study the nice Hirata tsuba I purchased from Curran.             

[Frank B]

Richard, thank you for that link it was a great read(anything by Markus usually is). So I'll concede that it was basely off of popularity, but some credit is due to the high end makers. I do not think that many would argue that Natsuo, Ichijo, Somin dont deserve the top title of Meijin. On the other hand, Otsuki Mitsuoki is rated below them at Meiko, and below him Hagiya Katsuhira is raked at Joko. There really isnt a logical way to say one is "better" than the other. It does however show which artists were most popular at the times of it's publication. 

[rkg]

Apparently there are more modern versions of this, and pricing guides as well.  Bruce K. sent me this one and a copy of the book cover it came out of as well - and as usual, I don't own the copyrights to any of this material and it is being presented for educational purposes only:

 

 

Bruce also said there's actually a number of pricing guides - there's apparently interest from the Tax Boyz in these for obvious reasons.....

 

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)

[Fred Geyer]

intersting article but this is not how they rank for artists vs Juyo ranking where Ichijo ranks highest

 

Fred

[Frank B]

intersting article but this is not how they rank for artists vs Juyo ranking where Ichijo ranks highest

 

Fred

Do you mean total works at the juyo level?

[Hoshi]

Interesting read. 

 

There is a clear hierarchy in desirability in Tosogu makers, just as there is with swords makers. Just as there is with European old master paintings. Things differ in desirability, this is not only an axiom in collecting but also one that we implicitly follow in life. Opening this argument drives us straight onto the philosophy of aesthetics and post-modern anti-aestethics... 

 

Basically my point is: to deny the existence of the ladder is nonsense, but to argue on its nature is very much an important question which every collector should consider at some point. 

 

Indeed,determining who steps of what level of the ladder and what the ladder is made of is a very valid point of debate. While most agree Ichijo, Natsuo, and Somin sit somewhere in top, its get murkier below with more space for disagreement in debate. For the iron tsuba makers, it's not even clear if they belong in the same ladder. While Kaneye can arguably sit on the same ladder for his impressionist wabi-sabism infused representations, it gets trickier when we look at Nobuie and other workers of old iron as they veer into the purely abstract domains which is less approachable and closer to European modern art. 

 

Initially it is quite clear with the Goto line working soft metal, and the Tsubako working old iron in pure functional form as tools. But starting 1800 it gets murky, with Goto makers working in Iron, and once we reach Meiji the lines get completely blurred. The Meiji explosion in artistic innovation is quite spectacular. 

 

A priori, it seems that it makes the most sense to outline objective criteria of execution and appraise these works in their separate categories. Just as Soshu school isn't evaluated with the same criteria as Bizen work, we should keep in mind what makes a tosogu of a given aesthetic line top quality versus lower quality. 

• Precision of the carving
• Quality of the composition (use of space, use of themes)
• Thematic innovation

It's easy to see how Natsuo and Somin dominate when we use these criterion. However it's also interesting to note that pre-1800 Goto makers would score poorly on thematic innovation as they have very codified styles and composition all the way down to the great Goto Yujo.  

 

At the end of the day, it's clear that the search for the objective criteria leads us to some problems of comparability between different periods and artistic lines. Old Goto vs Meiji work vs Old Iron is just an example, and I'm sure we can break down these categories even further. While we all agree that there exists a ladder of desirability, the analytical approach to evaluating objective criterion inevitably leads to problems. It's the same with Sword. What makes Top Soshu is different from Top Bizen from Top Yamato. We appraise and value different traits expressed differently for different schools. 

 

This is where the Juyo/Tokuju count or Juyo/Tokuju pass factor comes in. Rather than trying to come up with a top-down ranking of things based on dimensions of reality, we can ask the 'market of experts' what they think is best. This comes with the premise that the longer one studies, the more expert his judgement and the more accurate his opinion in determining what is value. The second assumption is that the aggregate judgement is more accurate than the singular judgement, which is something which is defensible given what we know about the wisdom of the crowd and how markets work. 

 

Finally one can raise the problem if circularity in this argument. But in my opinion one should consider that artistic production <--> artistic appreciation is something which is locked into a co-evolving loop. What gets highly appraised gets imitated, what gets imitated gets boring thus leading to the valuation of innovative composition, etc. This is one of the big drivers of Art, and there is a thread to be made that this loop has gone into overdrive in the 20th century following the impressionists, but that's a topic for a completely different forum...  

[Steve Waszak]

A priori, it seems that it makes the most sense to outline objective criteria of execution and appraise these works in their separate categories. Just as Soshu school isn't evaluated with the same criteria as Bizen work, we should keep in mind what makes a tosogu of a given aesthetic line top quality versus lower quality. 

• Precision of the carving
• Quality of the composition (use of space, use of themes)
• Thematic innovation

It's easy to see how Natsuo and Somin dominate when we use these criterion. However it's also interesting to note that pre-1800 Goto makers would score poorly on thematic innovation as they have very codified styles and composition all the way down to the great Goto Yujo.  

 

 

 

 

 

Important to recognize that for early iron, the criteria you present here, Chris --- precision of carving, quality of composition, thematic innovation --- may occupy a second tier after (or at least must make a lot of room for) such considerations as the quality of the forging, skill in hammering, deftness in use of yakite and/or tekkotsu (if present), and the patina/color of the metal.  If these are weak in a given iron tsuba, the criteria you mention won't matter so much. 

[Soshin]

Knowledge collectors at some point after having seen many, many, and many, examples start to do a ranking in there own mind.  The ladder created by the ranking is purely suggestive based upon their own experiences (likes and dislikes) and governed by artistic and esthetics principles not physical properties that are the result of empirical measurement.             

[Fred Geyer]

All......most people have never seen in hand the TRUE works of these great artists so they can not make a judgement, sorry but true if you did you would understand and be hooked on tosugo       

 

 

Frank Yes Ichijo has the most juyo works 

 

David ….what ???

 

Steve .. Sojo is also very high in the Juyo works    

 

works of Ichijo, Joshin, Natsuo, Sojo, Konkan, Matashichi just to name a few study the best for Artist ratings! I think 37 artists make up over half the Juyo works of all time 

 

 

Fred   

[Vermithrax16]

Yes, let's get a ranking system like in swords, only the 6-12 names will be chased. I would like that immensely.

[Frank B]

All......most people have never seen in hand the TRUE works of these great artists so they can not make a judgement, sorry but true if you did you would understand and be hooked on tosugo       

 

 

Frank Yes Ichijo has the most juyo works 

 

David ….what ???

 

Steve .. Sojo is also very high in the Juyo works    

 

works of Ichijo, Joshin, Natsuo, Sojo, Konkan, Matashichi just to name a few study the best for Artist ratings! I think 37 artists make up over half the Juyo works of all time 

 

 

Fred   

While Ichijo has the most works at juyo, I dont think that most would agree that he is the best kinko artist of all time. 

[Fred Geyer]

Vermithrax ...sorry don't know your name 

 

there is a ranking on them already

 

Fred 

[Fred Geyer]

Frank,

 

totaly agree some place is a personal liking, but true works done by him are truly outstanding works i have never seen anything better ... Kiyotoshi , Joi, Masatsune      

[Frank B]

Frank,

 

totaly agree some place is a personal liking, but true works done by him are truly outstanding works i have never seen anything better ... Kiyotoshi , Joi, Masatsune      

I've seen Ichijo's work in hand, and it's truly spectacular. To be fair I've never seen a Natsuo or Somin so until that day I cant say which is better in hand.

[Fred Geyer]

damn microsoft update shut me off !

 

So anyways there are many great artists liked noted above  

[Vermithrax16]

Vermithrax ...sorry don't know your name 

 

there is a ranking on them already

 

Fred 

Do share it. You skip past sarcsasm clearly, so YES Fred share the ranking so all the chasing can be done on them.

[Fred Geyer]

some photos 

[Vermithrax16]

some photos 

Magnificent.

 

I don't think we met at the 1/2 way point somehow or whatever. 

 

Is this Goto? Is this a million years old? Same thing in swords, if everything but the absolute best and finest is worth going after, then there will not be new collectors. 

[Frank B]

Fred, another thing to consider which Jeremiah mentioned was time frame. Ichijo's works are beautiful no doubt, but he had so many examples of past artists to work from. In that regard early artists who worked at a high level and had original idea's should be held in equal regard. What Somin did for tosogu was outstanding, and most of the great machibori artists stem from him. 

[Fred Geyer]

Frank,

 

Absolutly !!!!!!!!!!!

 

The top 5 smiths for Juyo has Sojo and Joshin 500 years ago !!!!!

 

As i noted above Ishiguro school made outstanding works !! One of his i could trade my house for and the owner would say NO !!!

 

Fred    

[Frank B]

Frank,

 

Absolutly !!!!!!!!!!!

 

The top 5 smiths for Juyo has Sojo and Joshin 500 years ago !!!!!

 

As i noted above Ishiguro school made outstanding works !! One of his i could trade my house for and the owner would say NO !!!

 

Fred    

Yeah, top tsuba by Ishiguro Masayoshi can easily get to 60k.

https://www.christies.com/lotfinder/Lot/an-ishiguro-school-shakudo-tsuba-edo-period-4461929-details.aspx

[Fred Geyer]

Frank

 

that one worth every penny !!! 

 

Fred

[Frank B]

If I had the money I wouldnt think twice. 

[Hoshi]

Jeremiah, 

 

You argue that ratings keep new collectors out. If I understand you correctly, you argue that this is because it affects demands thus driving prices for desirable items upwards because everyone chases the same thing. I would like to propose a different opinion. 

 

There already exists explicit ratings for Tosogu. However, these ratings are less known than the ones governing swords such as Fujishiro or the Meikan. If anything, those who keep counts of Juyo, and Juyo to Tokuju pass factor for Tosogu possess knowledge above those who don't in terms of what is deemed desirable and what is deemed less desirable. This is an information advantage because it correlates with the market's willingness to pay. Simply put, having this knowledge, and knowing what work of a given Tosogu artist is the most highly rated gives you an edge in creating a valuable collection and reducing your rent. 

 

This logic also applies just as well within-artists as it does between-artist. There is a ladder within the corpus of an artist. Ichiguro hawk themes will go for more than Ichiguro flower them. Top Tomei is millet theme. Goto Ichijo's realist work goes for more than his later serial impressionist work. This is the second ladder that you need to be aware when making purchase decision to rightly appraise, or set a price. All this data can be gleaned from the Juyo and Tokuju volumes. 

 

Thus, my argument is that having explicit ratings for Tosogu would in fact serve new collectors by leveling the playing field. In turn, new collectors could then make decisions which are more closely correlated with the market's appreciation which means less rent and less suckers. 

 

Now I don't want to be the bad guy here but I will state an unpopular opinion: We pay far too much in the west for average Iron Tsubas and bad Kinko work. These things are so plentiful in Japan they're used as paperweights. Why? Because we got our ladder all wrong. Dealers create the impression of scarcity by setting prices and gating supply. This in turn leads collectors to repeat the process when they sell off their pieces. This is worrisome to me. Because the ladder is not explicit and gated by expert knowledge, dealers can exploit this information asymmetry via arbitrage to impose a higher rent on you. 

 

Experts have an incentive is preserving the status-quo. New collectors do not. 

[Soshin]

All......most people have never seen in hand the TRUE works of these great artists so they can not make a judgement, sorry but true if you did you would understand and be hooked on tosugo       

 

 

Frank Yes Ichijo has the most juyo works 

 

David ….what ???

 

Steve .. Sojo is also very high in the Juyo works    

 

works of Ichijo, Joshin, Natsuo, Sojo, Konkan, Matashichi just to name a few study the best for Artist ratings! I think 37 artists make up over half the Juyo works of all time 

 

 

Fred   

 

Sorry Fred if you lack the intellectual context to understand a scientist...  Pass a semester of graduate biochemistry course and you might begin to understand where I am coming from.  Don't really have time to go into more detail too busy with other things this week.  I do appreciate your passed business and really enjoy looking at and studying some of your fine treasures at Japanese sword shows in the USA.  Hope to see you at Chicago show.         

[Pete Klein]