Koto Tanto

[Blazeaglory]

  On 3/28/2019 at 5:14 PM, Brian said:

Dwain,

You need to see proper Yokoya menuki. Or any of the top schools. Yours are nice. But they are not Yokoya nice. Not even close imho. Which is why most of us think plated. They are not of the high enough quality to be solid gold.

And the tsukamaki is not very good. Not at all. There are plenty examples of good tsukamaki out there. Do you think your diamonds are all perfect and identical?

It's a good tanto. But your testing method on the menuki is flawed, and you need to have the tsukamaki stripped and redone, and then you can see the backs of the menuki.

Out of interest, send the pics to Ford and ask his opinion from what he can see?

Hope we are all wrong. They could be gold. But your value is in the fact that it is a nice tanto and a good package, not because of the amount of precious metal.

Thanks Brian but that's what I mean. You say the tsuka-ito is bad and needs to be stripped and redone? Why? What exactly makes this a bad job? I only ask out of curiosity because in hand it looks like it was done yesterday. Also, I don't know how else I can test these, other than destroying the tsuka-ito, but 99% of places that deal in precious metals use the testing method I used. But I do agree that taking them out and looking at the back would be better.

 

I've looked at quite a few and compared these to all of them and they look pretty identical and in some cases, these were actually better looking. For the last few months I've been searching similar menuki for comparison and hopefully some closure.

 

Here are a couple quick links. The first is a Yokoya and the second are ko-kinko I think. I've also included a pic of a possible Yokoya shishi that looks close to mine. The really nice ones are pure 24kt wth no treatment while mine look to have been treated or coated with something. I've read that a red coating was used in some cases for looks? Or that was the cool thing to do at certain time back then? I've also posted mine again for comparison. So using these as reference, can we discuss and compare and point out how mine don't even come close in quality?

 

And I mean all of what I type with the utmost respect Brian. I think what you have here with this website is amazing. I'm not trying to disagree just for the sake of argument but many others have commented on the quality of the Menuki and suggested possibly Yokoya or at least very high end. And if they aren't Yokoya, the quality is still there. I just can't understand why others would think they aren't quality? They say that but yet give no solid reasons why. I'll send them to Ford as well. Thanks for that info!

 

And if after all of this, these do turn out to be plated, I'll humbly admit I was wrong. But atm, I'm still not convinced otherwise.

 

http://www.ncjsc.org/item_menuki_shishi.htm

 

https://yuhindo.com/kyo-kinko-shishi/

[TheGermanBastard]

Hello Dwain,

 

 

you wrote:

 

> Like I said, I've been dealing in precious metals for many years and have tested both plated and non plated . I'm not being "hopeful" that these are gold, I've tested and viewed under a high magnification and they are definitely high purity gold.

 

So you gurantee that they are solid gold? If yes I am probably in for your 2k asking price. However I unwrap the Tsuka to find them to be none solid gold you will take the sword back at a full refund. Right?

 

Looking forward to hearing from you

[Blazeaglory]

  On 3/28/2019 at 5:37 PM, NihontoCollector said:

Hello Dwain,

 

 

you wrote:

 

> Like I said, I've been dealing in precious metals for many years and have tested both plated and non plated . I'm not being "hopeful" that these are gold, I've tested and viewed under a high magnification and they are definitely high purity gold.

 

So you gurantee that they are solid gold? If yes I am probably in for your 2k asking price. However I unwrap the Tsuka to find them to be none solid gold you will take the sword back at a full refund. Right?

 

Looking forward to hearing from you

2.5$k asking price but yes that's something I'm willing to consider. I would hate for the wrap to get destroyed but I understand the concern.

 

If you're serious, let me think about it. I haven't made the decision to list it yet and I don't want to negotiate or make deals outside of the sales section. I will offer a a window for inspection but actually taking the tsuka apart, I would have to think about that.

 

So please, if I do make a decision to sell, I would like to do it properly within the rules of this forum and list properly. But please, send me a PM and we can talk further if you're serious.

 

Like I said, 15% of sale price will go to Brian for the website. And if you're not serious and just trying to trap me in some kind of game, please don't.

[TheGermanBastard]

Hello Dwain,

 

you said 2500 or best offer. My best offer is 2000 USD. If the Menuki are solid gold I will do a 200 USD donation to the Nihonto message board. If they are not solid gold you will take the sword back for a refund. Postage for sending it back to you is on me. The to be fixed wrap is on you.

 

You will make about 600 USD profit on the Tanto if it is as you claim - considering the 150.000 Yen that you have paid.

 

That's my offer, Up to you to take it or leave it.

[Frank B]

Dwain, another possibility is that the original menuki were taken out and a solid gold casting was made of them. This aligns well with the poor job on the tsuka-ito wrapping. I know AOI deals in large quantities, but I find it hard to believe that nobody would have looked twice at the menuki. Its not a very good business model to sell your items for less than what they are worth. I hope I am wrong, but I have seen multiple examples of new cast menuki(even in gold). I have even seen this on AOI. 

[Blazeaglory]

I want to thank everyone for all the advice and opinions.

 

From what I've seen on my part, I strongly feel these are pure gold but listening to everyone here, I will hold back and perform other tests or get other opinions from maybe someone that can judge these in person.

 

So I've got some thinking to do and some choices to make. If anyone wants to discuss this further, please send me a PM. Also, keep an eye out in the sales section.

 

Thanks again everyone

 

D

[TheGermanBastard]

Hello Dwain,

 

so I guess my offer to buy the Tanto is void then.

 

If I were you I would take out these Menuki and check on them - or sell as possibkel gold without gurantess. However I would be too nosy and hence take them out.

 

Good luck whatever raod you take.

[Guido]

FWIW: the description in Japanese says 金無垢 kinmuku, i.e. solid gold.

 

I don't agree with those who say that the tsukamaki is a recent amateur job or the like, looks to me like decent hoso-ito-tsumami-maki - maybe not erveryboy's taste, but I happen to like it; on a tantō it makes the tsuka look less bulky than regular width ito might do. It also looks old, which explains why the diamonds are not perfect anymore.

 

I do, however, agree with those who said that the craftsmanship of the menuki doesn't come anywhere near Yokoya work.The あかんべえ akanbē-like facial expression of one of the shishi looks pretty goofy to me.

[Guest Rayhan]

Are they heavy?

[Guido]

  On 3/29/2019 at 5:55 AM, Rayhan said:

Are they heavy?

No, they aint heavy, they are my brothers!

 

Seriously though, I don't see how Dwain could weigh them while still wrapped on the tsuka.

[Ed]

  Quote

I also don't see that there are any papers with the blade, and assume that it is likely to be gimei, if you bought it from Japan without papers.  

 

 

This should have been on an episode of Myth Busters. 

The idea that if a blade comes from Japan without papers it is gimei, is total nonsense.

 

Stop and think about that statement.

 

Didn't every Japanese sword come from Japan?

 

How many people here have had swords with no papers that later papered? Plenty!

 

I have imported many swords from Japan which had no papers, yet later papered.

 

Certainly, gimei is a possibility, but it is just as unlikely as likely.

Which is the best reason for study, so you can make an educated decision. 

Even if that decision only gets you close enough to decide whether the probability of passing warrants a submission to shinsa. 

 

There are many swords imported which are gimei, gimei is a common occurrence seen in Japanese swords.

Many swords have been imported with papers which were gimei.

Many swords with papers have later been deemed gimei.

Many swords deemed gimei later papered.

 

Papers are just an opinion, and the blades are subject to varying interpretations or opinions.

 

So to profess that just because a sword comes from Japan without papers it is gimei, is nothing more than misinformation.

 

Please, please stop perpetuating this harmful and inaccurate myth.

 

Apologies for the off-topic rant.

[Blazeaglory]

  On 3/28/2019 at 11:18 PM, NihontoCollector said:

Hello Dwain,

 

so I guess my offer to buy the Tanto is void then.

 

If I were you I would take out these Menuki and check on them - or sell as possibkel gold without gurantess. However I would be too nosy and hence take them out.

 

Good luck whatever raod you take.

No worries, I didn't expect you to.

 

I'm really on the fence about taking it apart. The tsuka-ito does have paper/cork triangles underneath close to the Menuki and viewed from the side it looks a little more "3D" but I think maker was going for a streamline look but who knows.

 

It could be non original because I've noticed the Same has been repaired, so it's likely the Tsuka-ito was replaced at the time as well.

 

If anyone knows of a seller who has similar (preferably exact) tsuka-ito, I would like to know because in all my searches I have been unable to find it. I really like the color and feel.

 

If I do decide to take it apart, I'll post another thread and show step by step, but I would like some advice on how to proceed. But don't get your hopes up

[Blazeaglory]

  On 3/29/2019 at 12:17 AM, Guido Schiller said:

FWIW: the description in Japanese says 金無垢 kinmuku,

I do, however, agree with those who said that the craftsmanship of the menuki doesn't come anywhere near Yokoya work.The あかんべえ akanbē-like facial expression of one of the shishi looks pretty goofy to me.

Thanks for the kind words. I'm not saying they are Yokoya, I'm only comparing them using other suggestions. And if I'm coming across as brash or not listening, please forgive me. I just ask allot of questions. But I do listen, just please bear with me.

 

So, I agree it looks goofy, I actually thought that before I bought it. It grew on me tho. I have noticed that others look goofy as well when made with the Shi-Shi looking straight ahead and mouth open. Also, there are similar circular "swirls" that Yokoya has been known to do. You can see them on the legs and one is on the very top of his head. So I'm not disagreeing with you or claiming these are Yokoya 100%, as there are minor similarities, but I am debating further in regards to quality. Please know I respect your opinion and expertise.

 

Check out the below pics. I think maybe one is Yokoya and others are maybe Goto and random or none are Yokoya (see above pg.1 for Yokoya). The faces are similarly goofy looking to a certain extent. And regardless of anything else, Yokoya or not, solid gold or plated, I have to disagree that the quality and detail isn't comparable. I've attached mine as well for easy comparison.

 

Once again, thanks everyone. I am listening and contemplating everyone's insight. If do decide to remove these Menuki , I'll post results regardless of outcome.

[TheGermanBastard]

  On 3/29/2019 at 10:54 AM, Ed said:

This should have been on an episode of Myth Busters. 

The idea that if a blade comes from Japan without papers it is gimei, is total nonsense.

 

Stop and think about that statement.

 

Didn't every Japanese sword come from Japan?

 

How many people here have had swords with no papers that later papered? Plenty!

 

I have imported many swords from Japan which had no papers, yet later papered.

 

Certainly, gimei is a possibility, but it is just as unlikely as likely.

Which is the best reason for study, so you can make an educated decision. 

Even if that decision only gets you close enough to decide whether the probability of passing warrants a submission to shinsa. 

 

There are many swords imported which are gimei, gimei is a common occurrence seen in Japanese swords.

Many swords have been imported with papers which were gimei.

Many swords with papers have later been deemed gimei.

Many swords deemed gimei later papered.

 

Papers are just an opinion, and the blades are subject to varying interpretations or opinions.

 

So to profess that just because a sword comes from Japan without papers it is gimei, is nothing more than misinformation.

 

Please, please stop perpetuating this harmful and inaccurate myth.

 

Apologies for the off-topic rant.

 

Hello Ed,

 

you have got a point there. The full story is that one has to see from what source a sword comes. If it comes from a dealer without papers or green papers, then you have a very good chance of it being Gimei imho - unless it is for a minor guy.

 

Regards

[SAS]

If you are friends with the local X-ray tech, that might be a nondestructive option to see how the menuki are made.

[Guest Rayhan]

 

No, they aint heavy, they are my brothers!

 

[Blazeaglory]

  On 3/30/2019 at 1:05 AM, Rayhan said:

No, they aint heavy, they are my brothers!

 

LOL

 

https://youtu.be/Jl5vi9ir49g