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Blazeaglory
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Blazeaglory Mentor

Blazeaglory

Posted
Posted

I'm thinking about listing my tanto on eBay for a higher than usual price just to see what kind of interest I get.

 

The tanto itself is pretty nice but tired from polishes over the years. The selling point, to be honest, are the gold shi-shi menuki that point towards Yokoya or some other high end school/smith.

 

Anyways, I just wanted to see what everyone thinks of this. I'm on the fence about eBay and Nihonto because I see allot of crap with high asking prices, so I would really hate to fall into that category but I think the Menuki and matching koshirae is worth more than normal.

 

I will also post a listing here but don't be shocked by my asking price because erything is negotiable. I'm testing the market at the moment but it doesn't look like the market is too hot right now.

 

So please, if you all can give me some feedback in regards to what you think, in my opinion, museum quality gold Menuki along with a decent 7-8 inch Koto tanto with matching silver fittings and kozuka/kogatana would be valued at in terms of paper money.

 

Thanks everyone. I'm in a tight spot and need cash. I really don't want to sell this.

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  • Like 1
Blazeaglory Mentor

Blazeaglory

Posted
  • Author
Posted
  On 3/25/2019 at 10:37 PM, SAS said:

The photos don't have enough size to really see what is there, in my opinion. The hamon looks nice.

Thanks.

 

Yes, funny you mention the hamon because that's the reason I bought it in first place. I was looking for an old tanto with a suguha/gunome ashi hamon. At the time I thought it was the most usual and rare hamon I'd ever seen lol

 

I didn't really notice the Menuki until I got it in hand and thought they looked awfully good for being so old. So I went online and read the listing again in detail and sure enough, they were listed as solid gold.

 

Anyways, I've posted this tanto ad nauseam and I'm sure there are certain members here that can't stand me and are annoyed but that's not my intentions and the more nihonto the merrier right?

 

Here's links to more pics. I don't really want to sell it but I'm in need of cash asap. I'm thinking of loaning it out but I'm afraid it will get ruined, so I would rather it go to a serious collector.

 

Tanto and koshirae- https://flic.kr/s/aHsmBwog2J

 

Menuki- https://flic.kr/s/aHskPh3gDF

 

Blade only- https://flic.kr/s/aHsmBPp8to

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  • Like 1
Blazeaglory Mentor

Blazeaglory

Posted
  • Author
Posted
  On 3/26/2019 at 1:54 AM, Ken-Hawaii said:

Dwain, you're twisting the system a bit, almost listing your blade, but without the required price. Play nice, please.

Really Im debating on listing it and looking for advice to help my conflicted mind. I really dont want to sell it but today something happened. At this point Im 50/50 on listing it as Im working on other means of gathering cash. So it might not even be up for sale.

 

But if were not allowed to ask for advice on what something is worth or what a good retail price would be, I'll stop. Also, I wanted to gather what the board felt so I could list here for a reduced price as a benefit for members. If I do list it, anyone who messages me with serious advice, Ill help them with a % of the sale (if I have to proceed with selling it). I will also donate 15% of selling price to NMB

 

Im asking this with the utmost respect, can you please enlighten me how this is twisting the system so I can avoid breaking any rules? Because twisting the system or whatever anyone thinks I'm trying to do, is something I have no intentions of doing. I really mean that. But thanks for letting me know just in case. Im already conflicted that I might have to part with this blade as is

 

MODS if you feel Ive broken any rules, please feel free to delete this topic as I didn't realize I was doing something that might be against board rules or frowned upon. Or move to another section maybe

lonely panet Grand Master

lonely panet

Posted
Posted

EBay has many many over priced nihonto, that havnt sold in years.

 

If you wanting a serious chance at attempting extra on your purchase price. maybe look a consignment with a respected dealer. That way you put money into his and your hands not PayPal and fleabays

  • Like 3
Surfson Grand Master

Surfson

Posted
Posted

Hi Dwain.  You asked for frank feedback and I will do my best to give it.  

 

First, did you buy this from a dealer, like Aoi arts or someone similar?   If so, you can figure that it is worth less than you paid for it.  In short, it is very hard for collectors to get retail prices when they resell swords.  

 

Having said that, i have bought an item or two where Aoi failed to recognize that a habaki was solid gold, and it is possible that your menuki are solid gold and important (though unlikely).  The hard part will be to convince a buyer that they are gold and important, especially with these photos (see the post above this one), which are really not good enough to discern the detail.  You could possibly go to a jeweler and get a continuity or content test that will determine the gold content.  

 

I do have a small issue with the tanto, and that is the handle wrap, which seems a bit amateurish to me.  That, of course, can be easily remedited with a new wrap, at which time the menuki can be photographed carefully and with great detail.

 

It would be nice if you had good photos of the tang as well.  

 

Best of luck with it.  Cheers, Bob

  • Like 1
Surfson Grand Master

Surfson

Posted
Posted

I also don't see that there are any papers with the blade, and assume that it is likely to be gimei, if you bought it from Japan without papers.  

 

So, to be even more specific, and using your photos, which are not particularly good at revealing the details, I would think that it would be a challenge to get more than $2000 for this piece on ebay as it  is.  Just my honest  view, and what I think you are looking for. 

 

If the menuki are solid gold, and beautiful, they would be worth this much by themselves.  However, you would have to establish both that they are beautiful and solid gold, neither of which is clear with the photos.  I hope this helps.  

  • Like 1
seattle1 Experienced

seattle1

Posted
Posted

Hello:

 Gold adds little than its market value and its use does not necessarily spell aesthetic quality. The tsuba on the other hands looks like a nice tachikanaguchi example, a little abuse not withstanding.

 Arnold F.

  • Like 1
Blazeaglory Mentor

Blazeaglory

Posted
  • Author
Posted
  On 3/26/2019 at 10:08 PM, Frank Gorelik said:

Dwain, how did you test the menuki?

Chemical. Which is semi intrusive and I will only repeat prior to a serious offer (if I sell)

 

AOI listed them as gold as well. I don't want to turn this into another debate about "are they or aren't they". I've been dealing with precious metals for over 2 decades and when you see good gold, you know it

 

All other fittings are silver and tsuba is copper

Blazeaglory Mentor

Blazeaglory

Posted
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Posted
  On 3/26/2019 at 12:31 PM, Surfson said:

I also don't see that there are any papers with the blade, and assume that it is likely to be gimei, if you bought it from Japan without papers.

 

So, to be even more specific, and using your photos, which are not particularly good at revealing the details, I would think that it would be a challenge to get more than $2000 for this piece on ebay as it is. Just my honest view, and what I think you are looking for.

 

If the menuki are solid gold, and beautiful, they would be worth this much by themselves. However, you would have to establish both that they are beautiful and solid gold, neither of which is clear with the photos. I hope this helps.

HERE ARE VERY DETAILED PHOTOS OF MENUKI. YOU CAN ZOOM IN VERY CLOSE

 

https://flic.kr/s/aHskPh3gDF

 

I agree.

 

Up close you can see much detail, also in pics above. They are small. Less than 1.5 inches wide and 1 inch tall. But the tsuka-ito on this is actually very well done. Its tight as ever and not dirty or stained at all. The material is silk. In hand its actually very solid

 

I'm not really worried about the blade making paper or not. At best this could be a Sue-Tegai Kanesada which isn't a low smith but not very high either, so using his signature as fake wouldn't make much sense when they could have used a more famous smith. Plus ppl get too caught up on "paper when IMO, the value is in the aesthetics of the blade itself. But you're right and I agree, paper does help.

 

I think allot of value is in the entire package. I agree that eBay has allot of over priced tanto and I really don't want to list it there. I would rather someone experience this in hand to appreciate the quality.

 

I was thinking a price tag in the 2$k to 4$k range? If I have to. I really don't tho.

 

Thanks all for opinion and advice!

Blazeaglory Mentor

Blazeaglory

Posted
  • Author
Posted
  On 3/27/2019 at 2:34 PM, Vermithrax16 said:

Obscure or lower end Smith's are well represented in the gimei scene. Its bizarre, but very common.

 

 

Interesting! I wonder why? Maybe just to show a signature without making it too obvious its fake?

 

The Mei on this one is pretty obscured anyways

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TheGermanBastard

TheGermanBastard

Posted
Posted

Aoi Art says he recommends this Tanto for me.

 

Now to be serious: I think 150.000 Yen was cheap. The topic sarter said he is looking for 2 - 4k US. Can the price be doubled or even triplled? Sure if he finds a buyer wanting to pay that amount of money. You "just" need to find that someone. He might be somewhere. He just was not joining the AOI Art auction for whatever reason.

 

I think the Koshirae is nice. I like it. Do I think those Menuki are Gold? No I do not think so. If AOI Art had really thought them to be Gold they would have been removed. I would have removed them and I do not believe AOI to be anywhere close to being as stupid as I am. have a physical gold tester that cost a fortune and I think that is the only way to check on anything to be sure. Applying chemicals will only check on the surface but you can't tell what is on the back. There could be heavyy gold foil and a copper base on tzhe back.

 

No matter wheter the Menuki are solid gold or not I think they look nice.

 

Aoi Art says the Menuki MIGHT be solid Gold and that they think the signature looks good. Well, sometimes I look in the mirror and think I look good. Sometimes I don't. In the end AOI Art makes no gurantees.

 

Good luck with your potential sale.

  • Like 2
vajo Grand Master

vajo

Posted
Posted

Dwain the whole package is nice and you get it for a good price. To the gold menuki. They are gold plated. No problem to say they are gold. If they where pure 24k gold Aoi would point it out.

Blazeaglory Mentor

Blazeaglory

Posted
  • Author
Posted
  On 3/28/2019 at 2:52 AM, Vermithrax16 said:

Dwain, also would like to see how you arrived at Sue Tegai on this blade?

Just an educated guess from kantei. I would like to hear others opinions on who or what it might be tho.

 

I'm not solid on that smith but I can't really pin it to any other during that time. Any suggestions?

Blazeaglory Mentor

Blazeaglory

Posted
  • Author
Posted
  On 3/28/2019 at 6:51 AM, vajo said:

Dwain the whole package is nice and you get it for a good price. To the gold menuki. They are gold plated. No problem to say they are gold. If they where pure 24k gold Aoi would point it out.

 

Wow you guys are skeptical! But i guess it's warranted in this business..He also said the fuchi and Kashira were brass or bronze but they are actually silver. That's anther reason i wanted to hash this out prior to sale, so that if i did sell, we could have already discussed all of this. I really do just want to give someone a great deal but at same time I love this item and don't want to let it go for a price ill later regret.

 

I've been looking for that listing since I bought this! Good one! This is what AOI also said about the Menuki :Menuki: pure gold Engraving dumplings and peony on the ground.

 

He also said the kozuka was brass or copper but it's silver... So yes, he does miss a beat once in a while. It's understandable considering how many items he deals with. But to say the man is infallible is just wrong. I can go to most Nihonto dealers and find little things in their listings that might or might not be beneficial for a buyer. It happens if you know what to look for. Take it from a veteran eBay seller, were all open to making mistakes when listing an item

 

Is it so hard to believe they are gold? The test I used, I selected a spot that was high and open to centuries of wear. First, just by looking, if these are mid 1800s at the oldest, compared to other gold plated, they look awfully good. Second, the area I chose for testing were several spots on both menuki that were raised and exposed so any plate would have worn off or been highly compromised. I sadly took allot of material to counter act the possibility of gold plating. So with that in mind, they tested to at least 22kt. And if I'm wrong? And they are just super thick gold plate? They're still possibly Yokoya school beautiful Menuki and if the new owner doesn't like that they're plated, they can return the item in original condition if not damaged.

 

Like I said, I've been dealing in precious metals for many years and have tested both plated and non plated . I'm not being "hopeful" that these are gold, I've tested and viewed under a high magnification and they are definitely high purity gold.

 

But I would like to hear everyone's reasons for saying they are plated? Is it from study and testing or just "oh the possibilities are slim or I'm subconsciously jealous and bitter that this guy found this for so cheap".Not saying anyone is jealous or bitter but what other reasons are there? I've been watching AOI for years and have seen MULTIPLE listings where he mis identified something as not a precious metal. Not to mention someone in this very thread said AOI over looked a solid gold habaki.

 

But like I said, I don't want to get into a debate. Anyone is free to come check them out, instead of just basically guessing from online pics. Feel free to come and look for yourself. Send me a PM or make an offer when it's listed and I'll give a window for inspection. If it's listed it will be 2500$ obo.

 

 

But thank you all for your opinions. And I'd love to hear why you think they're plated. Other than AOI would have noticed (which he really doesn't on many cases present and prior). Anyone close to Orange county CA feel free to contact me and we can meet. I would love to finally meet someone who is into Nihonto and maybe you can bring an item or two of your own to show off?

 

Thanks all.

Hoshi Experienced

Hoshi

Posted
Posted

We need to be realistic. This is what AOI believed when they put up the listing:  

  • The menuki are plated
  • It's most likely gimei

Now, AOI does make mistakes. It happens, such is the nature of high-volume businesses. My theory is that the previous owner, or AOI art, checked the Menuki and had an amateurish in shop Tsukamaki made and sold it off to the next guy as "maybe solid gold". This is how these things get cycled in the 'freak circus' arena of nihonto's ladder theory arbitrage. In this domain, the expertise and business acumen of AOI is simply unrivaled. 

 

It's possible to game AOI, you need to be lucky or incredibly knowledgeable and understand their business model. I would not recommend playing this game as it's like going one on one against the House, play enough times and you'll lose, and the beauty of it all is that you'll remain convinced you won. 

 

You might as well open up the lottery ticket. The tsuka-maki work is amateurish and possibly worth around ~50$. If these are solid gold Yokoya menuki, we're looking at 5k+ with very high upsides depending on the maker. Do I think it's the case? No, but sometimes the House makes a mistake. If you're confident its solid gold, then that's the rational thing to do. Making the case it's solid gold and referencing your expertise with precious metal on the board to give impressions that you're selling this at a 'discount' is the continuation of the AOI business model. Either you believe its gold and open it up, or you don't believe its solid gold and you sell it as is with your truthful impression. 

Blazeaglory Mentor

Blazeaglory

Posted
  • Author
Posted
  On 3/28/2019 at 3:32 PM, Valric said:

We need to be realistic. This is what AOI believed when they put up the listing:

  • The menuki are plated
  • It's most likely gimei
Now, AOI does make mistakes. It happens, such is the nature of high-volume businesses. My theory is that the previous owner, or AOI art, checked the Menuki and had an amateurish in shop Tsukamaki made and sold it off to the next guy as "maybe solid gold". This is how these things get cycled in the 'freak circus' arena of nihonto's ladder theory arbitrage. In this domain, the expertise and business acumen of AOI is simply unrivaled.

 

It's possible to game AOI, you need to be lucky or incredibly knowledgeable and understand their business model. I would not recommend playing this game as it's like going one on one against the House, play enough times and you'll lose, and the beauty of it all is that you'll remain convinced you won.

 

You might as well open up the lottery ticket. The tsuka-maki work is amateurish and possibly worth around ~50$. If these are solid gold Yokoya menuki, we're looking at 5k+ with very high upsides depending on the maker. Do I think it's the case? No, but sometimes the House makes a mistake. If you're confident its solid gold, then that's the rational thing to do. Making the case it's solid gold and referencing your expertise with precious metal on the board to give impressions that you're selling this at a 'discount' is the continuation of the AOI business model. Either you believe its gold and open it up, or you don't believe its solid gold and you sell it as is with your truthful impression.

You're entitled to an opinion but I'm not trying to game anyone. I don't make a living off of seeking out possible mistakes in listings just to flip an item for profit. I'm only stating that we're human and ppl make mistakes. Myself included. After this response, I'm not going to talk about plated vs. Non plated anymore. If anyone is interested or close to my house, please come look for yourself.

 

AOI also stated in the listing that they are solid gold. So its funny that some ppl pick and choose statements from the listing to justify their own opinion without any first hand experience with the item. He never stated they were plated, only that he was unsure. That's understandable when selling a possibly high end item and I'll do the same. Like I said, I'm not trying to scam anyone and everyone is welcome to examine. I would like to see a comparable set that is as old and in as good of condition. Each set I've looked at has always been patchy and worn with the base metal showing through or the plated gold looked so fake that it was obvious. I have never seen a set that looked like the ones here. Unless the previous care taker of this tanto kept it in a safe or drawer for its entire life, these Menuki would look much worse if they were plated.

 

And not to disrespect AOI but I've already pointed out multiple mistakes from the listing, as well as others who have found siimilar items. I'm not gloating or trying to make myself seem like an all knowing professional but from the testing and handling I've done with these Menuki in hand leads me to believe they are solid gold. If not, they are extremely well plated. I personally believe they are solid gold but I could not bring myself to take them out and ruin the wrap. Its not in the cost of repairing that I'm worried about, it's the fact that the Koshirae is complete from late Edo and I want to keep it intact. Its not a ploy to deceive anyone. The new owner can do whatever they want with it (if sold).

 

Also, why would you think the tsuka is a bad job? It's tight, even and the material is high end with a good color combo. Yes the Same is s little worn and doesn't look too good but the tsuka-ito, IMO looks and feels really good. Compared to others I've handled anyways. I would like to know because I've been under the impression it is a good job.

 

So that's the deal with this package. It could be a home run with valuable gold Yokoya menuki, or it could be a decent buy with high end fittings and a nice little Koto tanto. Paper or not, if someone likes this item and feels comfortable with the settled price, a paper is irrelevant. That's why I bought this item in the first place, I really liked the hamon and the Koshirae. It wasn't until much later that I started to focus on the Menuki. Also, i am 50/50 on this being gimei. It doesn't really bother me tho because the mei is so obscured we'll never know which "Sada" the possible forger was trying to replicate, if it is fake that is. If it's real, we'll never know as well! I mean unless someone did want to shinsa this or anyone has info on school or smith. Either way it really doesn't bother me for this item. But i understand that others might feel different

 

Please keep the info coming and if you do feel something is bad or off or whatever, please explain why so I can get a better understanding. I'm not discrediting anyone's advice here but at the same time I would like to separate personal feelings vs. solid info. Either way, good stuff!

 

Thanks again!

Brian

Brian

Posted
Posted

Dwain,
You need to see proper Yokoya menuki. Or any of the top schools. Yours are nice. But they are not Yokoya nice. Not even close imho. Which is why most of us think plated. They are not of the high enough quality to be solid gold.
And the tsukamaki is not very good. Not at all. There are plenty examples of good tsukamaki out there. Do you think your diamonds are all perfect and identical?
It's a good tanto. But your testing method on the menuki is flawed, and you need to have the tsukamaki stripped and redone, and then you can see the backs of the menuki.
Out of interest, send the pics to Ford and ask his opinion from what he can see?
Hope we are all wrong. They could be gold. But your value is in the fact that it is a nice tanto and a good package, not because of the amount of precious metal.

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