You Know What Would Be Great?

16k · March 21, 2019

Okay, so I’m here to learn...

So I’ve studied my lessons, read my books and all, but unfortunately, where I live opportunities to look at numerous and good swords is, to say the least, limited.

Besides, there is always a difference between what you read in books, where examples are carefully selected to look like the default blade according to this and that school, this and that era...

All this to say, sometimes, well very often indeed, people post blades and ask for a school/date, and our most knowledgeable members reply with a school, a date and sometimes even an attribution.

And here I am, poor learner wanting to learn and wondering:”what the hell made him jump to that conclusion?” Then reading entries in my books and comparing and not always being the wiser for it as the blade isn’t that typical of that school/era/Smith.

...so, on with my question: you know what would be great?

What would be great is that for learners, like me, and I’m sure I’m not the only one, or if I am, then I’m stupid, what would be great (redundancy) is that everyone, when he makes a judgment, wise guys and beginners alike, explain, even very briefly how they jumped to their conclusion.

That way, wise people would teach and beginners could have their attempts completed or corrected.

I know it’s a lot to ask, but knowledge is such a great thing (I know what I’m saying, I’m a teacher in life) that spreading it is the best way to leave a legacy.

Thanks for your time!

paulb · March 21, 2019

J.P.

This is a subject that has been discussed often and the suggestion of explaining why you think something is x or y often made (I admit it is one of my pet moans and I mention it to the point of tedium) expressing an opinion without saying what led you to reaching it is pretty much meaningless. If you look at the NBTHK journals there is always a lengthy and detailed explanation of all of their kantei. That is what makes them valuable as a learning aid.

Pete Klein · March 21, 2019

JP - do you attend the NBTHK-EB meetings?

Jean · March 21, 2019

JP,

Concerning your request, a new Topic has been posted by Jean, a new French member. Subject: identify his sword from pictures (school/age) Ray and myself will go for Uda school, Nambokucho. Now you will say: why this kantei? It is very difficult to answer. First it requires for this kantei to have seen a few Uda blades to understand the school.

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/28359-find-info-on-muromachi-blade/

Begin by asking the question: why Nambokucho? What are the features of a Nambokucho sword? Does this blade fits these features, try to get the answer from the pictures.

Now the school, what are the Nambokucho two leading schools? Bizen and Soshu, these two school concentrates more than 75% of sword production. Now can this blade have features of one of this school, if yes, which one? Now how is the hada, is it smooth or tight or coarse, after it is a question of Study of leading Bizen smiths, of Soshu school, Masamune and his jutetsu (ten brillant pupils) and the school they begot. You have to reach a decision after weighing the pros and cons, the mune: generally Soshu influenced schools can have a mitsu mune. The hada of this blade is rough which makes one think of Northen country, this leads to Uda school, remains the iori mune not a feature for the school, thus Ray comments

Ken-Hawaii · March 22, 2019

You make some good points, JP, but I disagree on your need for detailed explanations, except to agree with what you have already concluded.

I assume that you are aware of the four standard steps for kantei: sugata > jihada/jigane > hamon/boshi > nakago. As I work my way through these steps, I try to make a game of figuring out the blade's age, Gokaden, school, & smith before I read anything that the poster has written. If my guess disagrees, then it's time to dig in to see why I'm wrong...or why the poster is wrong.

Yes, it's handy to find a post that includes the poster's thought-train, but I think you learn more, & a lot faster, by going through this process each & every time you see an interesting blade. Aoi Art posts kantei examples, & that's a good place to start, especially if there are no high-quality blades near you.

16k · March 22, 2019

J.P.

This is a subject that has been discussed often and the suggestion of explaining why you think something is x or y often made (I admit it is one of my pet moans and I mention it to the point of tedium) expressing an opinion without saying what led you to reaching it is pretty much meaningless. If you look at the NBTHK journals there is always a lengthy and detailed explanation of all of their kantei. That is what makes them valuable as a learning aid.

I agree, it’s a bit like a language, you can learn all the grammar and word in books, but you won’t progress unless you confront yourself to a native. That’s the limit of books, self taught subjects can only go that far if nobody is there to guide you and helps you go further.

JP - do you attend the NBTHK-EB meetings?

I wish I would! No such thing where I live and life has seen to it the I’m pretty limited as far as travelling is concerned. I guess there is one in Paris, but to do that, I’d have to travel some 500 miles back and forth, so that involves money as I’d need a hotel and so on. I’m not the richest guy and sometimes I wonder if I chose the right passion, but I don’t think you choose a passion, it chooses you! Plus I’m taking care of two ailing and aging parents, so I can’t be away for too long

JP,

Concerning your request, a new Topic has been posted by Jean, a new French member. Subject: identify his sword from pictures (school/age) Ray and myself will go for Uda school, Nambokucho. Now you will say: why this kantei? It is very difficult to answer. First it requires for this kantei to have seen a few Uda blades to understand the school.

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/28359-find-info-on-muromachi-blade/

Begin by asking the question: why Nambokucho? What are the features of a Nambokucho sword? Does this blade fits these features, try to get the answer from the pictures.

Now the school, what are the Nambokucho two leading schools? Bizen and Soshu, these two school concentrates more than 75% of sword production. Now can this blade have features of one of this school, if yes, which one? Now how is the hada, is it smooth or tight or coarse, after it is a question of Study of leading Bizen smiths, of Soshu school, Masamune and his jutetsu (ten brillant pupils) and the school they begot. You have to reach a decision after weighing the pros and cons, the mune: generally Soshu influenced schools can have a mitsu mune. The hada of this blade is rough which makes one think of Northen country, this leads to Uda school, remains the iori mune not a feature for the school, thus Ray comments

You make some good points, JP, but I disagree on your need for detailed explanations, except to agree with what you have already concluded.

I assume that you are aware of the four standard steps for kantei: sugata > jihada/jigane > hamon/boshi > nakago. As I work my way through these steps, I try to make a game of figuring out the blade's age, Gokaden, school, & smith before I read anything that the poster has written. If my guess disagrees, then it's time to dig in to see why I'm wrong...or why the poster is wrong.

Yes, it's handy to find a post that includes the poster's thought-train, but I think you learn more, & a lot faster, by going through this process each & every time you see an interesting blade. Aoi Art posts kantei examples, & that's a good place to start, especially if there are no high-quality blades near you.

Jean and Ken:

It’s funny, Jean, because it is the very thread you pointed that made me create this thread. And Ken, I did what you do. I looked at the pictures before any thing else and tried, with my limited means, to come up with a result. Now, I wasn’t that ambitious as to point to a school, but a time frame and a tradition was my aim.

Judging by the length and the fact it was suriage and retained that length, I assumed that Nanbokucho/ early Muromachi was indeed a possibility. The Hamon pointed towards Soshu.

... and then I was stuck there! So I read Ray’s post who said immediately Ko-Uda. I delved immediately into my books, compared the references I had and must admit I wouldn’t have been able to tell.

Now Jean, in your post you say “rough jihada = northern provinces”. That the type of info I find particularly usefull. I guess it’s all there in books, but disseminated here and there and pointing it out to less knowledgeable people is what makes them go further.

Now, Ken, I perfectly agree with you, I always play the same game as you, but it can be very frustrating when you get pat of the result and somebody gives more details but you can’t figure out what these details are that made him conclude to that result.

It’s probably useless of me to ask, because some won’t read that post, some won’t make the effort, some new member will sign up and never see this thread, but if, on Kantei posts people would reply in à formalized, even short way, it could be so helpful!

It could be as simple as:

Time/school/maker: XXXX

Because: XXXX

Then, if the poster chooses to elaborate, fine, but at least, even this tiny bit of information would be very helpful.

Jean · March 22, 2019

Don’t hesitate to ask the « why’s » JP.

Sometimes the answer is irrational, it is just a gut feeling from having seen such kind of sword by a given smith.

16k · March 22, 2019

I shall certainly do that, Jean, and please, correct me when I'm wrong!

Gunome · April 5, 2019

Hello,

You could also learn a lot with kantei.

Aoiart propose weekly kantei on his site and you have: both oshigata and photos, and also the comment that tell you what you need to see on the blade.

then you search on your book what it could be => you learn by searching and you have the answere after.

Go back to your book after you have the answer and check why this blade enter into this school, what lead to that answer.

Vermithrax16 · April 6, 2019

JP,

I will show an example of how I will go through a study session (most nights, this was from like 20 minutes ago) and how I try to learn.

A friend from NMB sent me a sellers archive link to a sword from a maker I love. I spent quite a bit of time going over that sellers archived listings (excellent sales items).

I was enjoying this Kiyomaro Juyo daisho set of swords (early signature of Minamoto Masayuki 1845) and especially the wakizashi. The hamon screamed Bizen Ichimonji throw back. It was wonderful and full of movement and character. Have a look:

http://iidakoendo.com/4947/

That sword was made in the middle 1800's.

It reminded me of another Ichimonji work style, that of Ishido School. And one maker in particular.

It was hard as all get out to pass on this sword, loved the work so much. This one is shortened a bit, but is signed <Kiku Mon> Heki Yamashiro no Kami Minamoto Ippō, and was made in the middle to late 1600's. Take a look:

http://www.sword-auction.jp/en/content/as08188-%E5%88%80%EF%BC%9A%E8%8F%8A%E7%B4%8B-%E6%97%A5%E7%BD%AE%E5%B1%B1%E5%9F%8E%E5%AE%88%E6%BA%90%E4%B8%80%E6%B3%95-katana-kiku-mon-hioki-yamashiro-kami-minamoto-ippo

I just try to take in as much as I can. Here is a cool side by side picture:

Now compare the two above to a real Ichimonji, and I think you may take away quite a bit of being able to see what different works are.

16k · April 13, 2019

Hello,

You could also learn a lot with kantei.

Aoiart propose weekly kantei on his site and you have: both oshigata and photos, and also the comment that tell you what you need to see on the blade.

then you search on your book what it could be => you learn by searching and you have the answere after.

Go back to your book after you have the answer and check why this blade enter into this school, what lead to that answer.

Sorry for the late reply guys, it’s been an awfully busy week and I didn’t get much time to read and post here.

Sébastien, that’s a great suggestion! I often go on Aoiart but am a bit lot between what’s for sale, archive and such. Would you have link to the page where they post their Kantei exercises?

Thanks,

JP

JP,

I will show an example of how I will go through a study session (most nights, this was from like 20 minutes ago) and how I try to learn.

A friend from NMB sent me a sellers archive link to a sword from a maker I love. I spent quite a bit of time going over that sellers archived listings (excellent sales items).

I was enjoying this Kiyomaro Juyo daisho set of swords (early signature of Minamoto Masayuki 1845) and especially the wakizashi. The hamon screamed Bizen Ichimonji throw back. It was wonderful and full of movement and character. Have a look:

http://iidakoendo.com/4947/[/url

That sword was made in the middle 1800's.

It reminded me of another Ichimonji work style, that of Ishido School. And one maker in particular.

It was hard as all get out to pass on this sword, loved the work so much. This one is shortened a bit, but is signed <Kiku Mon> Heki Yamashiro no Kami Minamoto Ippō, and was made in the middle to late 1600's. Take a look:

http://www.sword-auction.jp/en/content/as08188-刀：菊紋-日置山城守源一法-katana-kiku-mon-hioki-yamashiro-kami-minamoto-ippo

I just try to take in as much as I can. Here is a cool side by side picture:

hamonCOMP.jpg

Now compare the two above to a real Ichimonji, and I think you may take away quite a bit of being able to see what different works are.