menpo Posted March 15, 2019 Report Posted March 15, 2019 Hi all. I came across this tsuba recently and I thought some of you might like to see it. When I first purchased it I had no idea it would be as old as it was. I initially had it down as mid to late Edo as the condition Was fantastic. It came in a custom fitted box and the the seller didn't have a great deal to say about it other than it was signed "Nobusada" which of course, it wasn't . After establishing the signature was Nobumasa I began my research. Unfortunately I couldn't find anything in any of my books to give me any information. It seemed so well made that I found it hard to believe that this man wouldn't have been recorded somewhere. Eventually I found him, Of course I was looking at the wrong period of time to start with. This Nobumasa in fact is momoyama period and said to be a student of the famous Nobuyie. Also with some help I managed to locate a photograph of an almost identical tsuba that was part of the Oeder collection in Germany at the turn of the century, which is also signed by the same man. Unfortunately, the collection went missing in 1945 and has never been seen since. I think this one would be a reasonable candidate to send to shinsa. Has anyone here seen any examples of this mans work? Any thoughts or comments would be much appreciated. Gethin 9 Quote
Steves87 Posted March 15, 2019 Report Posted March 15, 2019 Not the same, but somewhat similar. This is currently for sale on the internet. I can forward you a link if you are interested. Quote
kissakai Posted March 16, 2019 Report Posted March 16, 2019 This is one of my mumei tsuba Described as Shoami with 'sand' garden 2 Quote
Brian Ayres Posted March 16, 2019 Report Posted March 16, 2019 That’s a great find. It’s an aesthetically appealing tsuba. You look at it and you can’t help but smile. Quote
Dojikiri Posted March 16, 2019 Report Posted March 16, 2019 I believe that the Oeder collection is now in the Hermitage Museum in Saint Petersburg having been looted by the Russians after WW2. Quote
johnnyi Posted March 16, 2019 Report Posted March 16, 2019 Hi Gethin. really nice find! Here is my example of Nobumasa. I also have been looking for a while , but other than the Oeder collection (kindly pointed out to me by our member Christian M.) this example of your'[s is the only other one I've seen. . Your discovery provides the first time I think to actually to compare signatiures, as the Oeder picture is too poor as you know. Kind regards, Johnnyi 1 Quote
johnnyi Posted March 16, 2019 Report Posted March 16, 2019 Hi Pete. Yes, they do seem to be different makers. Mine was identified as the earlier Nobumasa due to the 1500's date . I regret I don't have the translation of the entire tsuba anymore, but would you or somebody else be able to translate the entire mei please? Is there anywhere a clear photo of the Oeder example, as the catalogue photo shows nothing. regards, John 1 Quote
Pete Klein Posted March 16, 2019 Report Posted March 16, 2019 Same kanji but struck differently = different makers most likely from different time periods. The kanji are different in execution. Quote
johnnyi Posted March 16, 2019 Report Posted March 16, 2019 "Tensho three" (1575) thank you member Uwe Sacklowski Regards, Johnnyi 1 Quote
Pete Klein Posted March 16, 2019 Report Posted March 16, 2019 You definitely need to send that tsuba into the NBTHK for shinsa and then let us all know the results. Quote
johnnyi Posted March 16, 2019 Report Posted March 16, 2019 Pete, I definitely think Gethin should send his in and I'll send mine in too. J. Quote
menpo Posted March 17, 2019 Author Report Posted March 17, 2019 Hi everyone. Thanks to everyone for their input. I'll definitely be sending it to the NBTHK soon. I have two other tsuba that need papering so it can go at the same time. Gethin Quote
Peter Bleed Posted March 17, 2019 Report Posted March 17, 2019 I am blown away by this DATED Nobufusa. It requires lots of rethinking - on my part! I have generally felt that bi-lobed tsuba - which John Lissenden called "Auriculate" - were a feature of the the Namban style - and further that they were copied/inspired from European small sword guards. That would place them comfortably in the 18th century. But, TAHHDAHHH here is a strongly auriculate tsuba dated in the 1500s. The world is a complex place, I guess. Peter Quote
Curran Posted March 17, 2019 Report Posted March 17, 2019 I am blown away by this DATED Nobufusa. It requires lots of rethinking - on my part! I have generally felt that bi-lobed tsuba - which John Lissenden called "Auriculate" - were a feature of the the Namban style - and further that they were copied/inspired from European small sword guards. That would place them comfortably in the 18th century. But, TAHHDAHHH here is a strongly auriculate tsuba dated in the 1500s. The world is a complex place, I guess. We have auriculated guards dated placed in the early to mid 17th century, but Y-E-S that was my exact first thought at seeing this dated one. Sort of a "woah, wait a minute there". While we see examples of guns in some 16th century fittings, we haven't seen many other evidences of western styling. I hope the signature is legit. Dr. Lissenden would have enjoyed this thread. About 2 years ago I acquired, researched, and then late last year Tokubetsu Hozon'ed a tsuba that predates common teachings on the origin period of a school by about 100 years. It probably stops there with being a good brain teaser to those I show it, but I increasingly accept some of Sasano's 'aggressive' dating. Johnnyi's is another good brain scratcher. The finish to the signature gives me pause, as I associate that with much later dating. Still, this should be interesting. Quote
MauroP Posted March 17, 2019 Report Posted March 17, 2019 Peter, why do you assume that Nanban means the 18th century? Actually the "Namban fashion" was mainly en vogue in the second half of 16th - early 17th century (anyway I don't think Johnny's tsuba fit in Namban box). Mauro Quote
johnnyi Posted March 17, 2019 Report Posted March 17, 2019 We have auriculated guards dated placed in the early to mid 17th century, but Y-E-S that was my exact first thought at seeing this dated one. Sort of a "woah, wait a minute there". While we see examples of guns in some 16th century fittings, we haven't seen many other evidences of western styling. I hope the signature is legit. Dr. Lissenden would have enjoyed this thread. About 2 years ago I acquired, researched, and then late last year Tokubetsu Hozon'ed a tsuba that predates common teachings on the origin period of a school by about 100 years. It probably stops there with being a good brain teaser to those I show it, but I increasingly accept some of Sasano's 'aggressive' dating. Johnnyi's is another good brain scratcher. The finish to the signature gives me pause, as I associate that with much later dating. Still, this should be interesting. Hi Curran, I have always wanted to get it checked out also. Although I don't (want to) believe the signature was "added" (there is a lower punch mark on the nakago ana which slightly deforms the last stroke, seeming to indicate the signature was there before it was mounted), it is the reasons stated; that it seems to predate a known style that demands a cautious look. Yet, looking through M.Sesko's "Nobuie" book last night I see several other kind of whacky tsuba I would not have expected, (number 129 in the first group of rubbings for instance, though that might be reaching) When you say, "the finish" to the signature, please what exactly does that mean? Thanks, John Quote
Curran Posted March 17, 2019 Report Posted March 17, 2019 John, ~tsukuru kore (made this) I expect that on 1800s tsuba, not 1500s tsuba. 1 Quote
Pete Klein Posted March 17, 2019 Report Posted March 17, 2019 Be aware this date and that 'tsukuru kore' are highly suspicious and may very well be gimei. You should know this going in as although the tsuba could be shoshin and get papered it also might not. Curran added while I was typing and his was my thought as well along with that tsuba were so rarely signed let alone dated prior to Edo shoki that it sends off a warning sign. Nobuie and Kaneie pretty much started naming tsuba and they were working Momoyama jidai. PS: It is considered VERY POOR FORM to go back and edit posts once replies have been posted. It throws off the flow of the thread and can make the following posts appear misguided. This has happened several times in this thread which is why I mention it. If you need to add or change information then create a new post to the thread. Quote
TETSUGENDO Posted March 17, 2019 Report Posted March 17, 2019 All things considered, there's a fair chance this is a 19th C. "revival" piece -S- 1 Quote
johnnyi Posted March 17, 2019 Report Posted March 17, 2019 Thanks for the invaluable help on this Peter, Curran, and Steven, and I apologize Gethin, for a probable imposter tsuba hijacking your post. Best of luck on getting yours papered. John Quote
TETSUGENDO Posted March 17, 2019 Report Posted March 17, 2019 Johnnyi, It's still a nicely made and interesting piece, just not exactly what it purports to be. -S- Quote
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