Old Sword ID/Value Help

[Fritz]

Hello,

First of let me introduce myself, My name is Fritz, and typically I a WW1/2 German,American collector but from time to time I do happen across japenese items. I recently in the past couple days purchased a sword, I have posted it on one other site that I frequent and have talked to a friend of mine who collects japenese swords and have found out a little information on this blade, I do know it was made approx 1520 by a smith called Nagayoshi, I am trying to find out alittle more information on this sword and it's engraving and approximate value(nothing firm but something I can go off if I sell it which at this point I'm not 100% sure). I'm not a dealer just a collector that happened into a nice blade. As for information that I receive I will not use any information to trick or mess with anyone I only go with the facts that I'm told. Thank you for your help.

 

Fritz

[Fritz]

Here is the next set

[Fritz]

Last two, if you need anymore please let me know. Thank You

[huntershooter]

The blade is shortened (suriage). The horimono was done prior to the shortening as evidenced by a portion of the horimono now being located on the nakago/under the habaki and the location of mei on nakago/additional mekugi ana.

Your photos don't show anything of the jigane/hada or hamon, may be from the lack of polish.

I have no idea on approx. value.

[Fritz]

Thanks Todd, I've been trying to get a picture of the temper line but have yet to accomplish it, tough one to photgraph, it's there just light like you said probably lack of polish maybe. I'll try tommorrow out side in the sunlight.

 

Fritz

[Bugyotsuji]

三æ¡é•·å‰ä½œ "Sanjo Nagayoshi　Saku"

 

Does it say æ”¿ç”·ä¹ on the reverse?

 

Had to turn my computer upside down to stare at that. That's what it seems to be saying, until someone has a better suggestion.

[Nobody]

Does it say æ”¿ç”·ä¹ on the reverse?

The mei on the reverse looks 政晃 (Masaaki?) to me.

[Bugyotsuji]

Does it say æ”¿ç”·ä¹ on the reverse?

The mei on the reverse looks 政晃 (Masaaki?) to me.

 

Yes, that's good, and it makes sense too!

[Fritz]

Is "Masaaki" the person that did the engraving?

 

Fritz

[Fritz]

No other thoughts? Thanks for the information that I have been given so far.

 

Fritz

[Guest reinhard]

The patina on the nakago peeled off in flakes, especially along ridges. Not good. Reminds me of sabitsuke-nakago (chemically aged tang).

 

reinhard

[Grey Doffin]

No idea why Masaaki would be signed on the other side. If it were the carver it would say something about carving.

Too bad it has been shortened; pity to see the carving under the habaki instead of where it belongs. Sometimes shortening that doesn't make sense can be a sign of a retempered blade. The shortening would be done to erase/cover a mark (mizukage) made at the original machi by the retempering process. Retemper would also explain the flaking nakago (fire scale?) and hamon that's difficult to photograph. I'm not saying I think the sword is retempered but it is always a possibility.

Any case, without having the blade in hand it won't be possible to say much about value. There's just too much we can't tell from photos.

Hope this helps.

Grey

[Fritz]

Thank you for the insight. Question what is the significance of the name Masaaki?

[Brian]

Fritz,

That is a good question, and I'm afraid is one that might never be answered. Probably not the horimono carver, and without further info, you can't be certain. Sometimes there were collaborations between makers, but nothing to verify this either.

I saw the other thread, and the guy that suggested the horimono carver, would be guessing, as usually that would be stated on the nakago. There are a few possibilities, but nothing can be said for sure unless you know how to go back in time

Even the horimono could be original or done later, no way of knowing for sure. I would suggest getting a window polished and someone to look at it in hand to count out retempering, and see what the blade looks like in polish. It seems maybe worth a polish. Wish I had more militaria to offer as a possible gamble in trade. WW2 FS knives? ZF4 Scope?.... :lol:

 

Brian

[Fritz]

Thanks Brian, I have been trying to get a picture of the temper line but with no luck, it's there just hard to see straight on but if you hold it right it's pretty clear, looks pretty bumpy like hills and mountains actually looks nice, after looking at it I think someone buffed it but it was done quite some time ago, I'm going to wind up selling it in the long run I just need to know what a fair price would be for it, I've had quite a few Emails about it and most say it's probably worth a polish. I have a friend thats very interested in it now I just need to fiqure out what to do. I really appreiciated the help and comments I have gotten here and will post more as I come accross them or just try to learn more from you all here so I can make good calls on these swords, out of 30 years of collecting military items believe it or not this is only the second Japenese sword I have ever owned.

 

Fritz

[Fritz]

If I do decide to keep this sword, asking a newbee question here, would having this sword authenticated,papered and polished help in the preservation and value over the long haul? Basically I'm asking is this a sword worth the investment to do this. Thanks

 

Fritz

[Grey Doffin]

Fritz,

A proper Polish should cost about 2,000 US$; one done by an amateur will cost less and but end up being more expensive in the long run (bone brain polishers destroy swords). Polish will probably be required before submission to paper. Paper, if the sword gets a paper, will add another thousand, or about $500 if you don't get one. Shira-saya (you don't put the newly polished sword back in the old scabbard) and possibly a habaki will add a few hundred more. The process will take about a year.

Polish aids in preservation only if you're prepared to learn how to properly care for the polish; otherwise the polish is counter productive (if the polish gets scratched and corroded, when you sell it the new owner will likely want a fresh polish and the blade can survive only so many polishes in its life).

If it financially smart to spend the money on this sword? A lot depends on what we've been talking about above (retemper, for example) and a lot depends on what you want to do with the sword. If you plan to sell, unless you have trustworthy advise from someone very knowledgeable that the sword will get a good attribution on the paper, it makes sense to sell it as is.

Hope this helps.

Grey

[Fritz]

Thanks Greg, I have someone coming over tonight to look at it for me and give me an idea of what to do. I appreiciate you comments and help. Thanks!

 

Fritz

[Darcy]

Signature on the opposite side...

 

- could be joint work

- could be horimono maker

- could be the person who did the suriage

- could be the owner

 

Probably varying likelihood. Gotta find him and check the dates. I'm leaning towards the guy who did the suriage.

[Grey Doffin]

Fritz,

Can you tell us the length of the cutting edge, from the tip to the notch at the back in a straight line? The current length might tell us something about the condition.

Grey

[Fritz]

Hi Grey,

The cutting edge length is 20.5" and the total length from the tip to the end of the tang is 27.5". Some of the engraving is under the habaki(I think thats the right term) I'd say maybe 10% or less of it is as you can see in the one picture. Hope this helps, and thanks for the help .

 

Fritz

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Fritz,

It looks to me like the sword has been shortened about 2", and that it was originally a 22.5" wakizashi. I can't think of a good reason why anyone would do that to a good piece. If it were originally a short katana and someone wanted a wakizashi it could make sense. During the Edo period only Samurai were allowed to carry a katana (length of edge at 24" or greater). It could be that a merchant owned a katana and had it shortened to be street legal. But why make a long wakizashi into a slightly less long wakizashi, especially if you partially hide the horimono by doing so?

This is a red flag for me; unexplainable shortening can be a sign of retempering (done to disguise evidence of the retemper). I don't think you want to try for polish and paper unless you have very good information that it makes sense.

Can anyone else think why this sword would have been shortened, if not to hide mizukage? I'd be interested to hear what you think.

Grey

[Fritz]

OK, how do you definitivly tell if it's been retempered?

[Grey Doffin]

Show it to someone who can tell, and even then it might be only an educated guess without a proper polish (or at least a polished window).

There's not much I could write here that would equal years of study and experience. Retemper can be a complicated subject. It's not always obvious if a sword is retempered or not.

Still curious if anyone has a better answer for why this was shortened.

Grey

[Ted Tenold]

The nakago is a bit stubby even for having been shortened. These shorter blades with stubby nakagos are seen coming out of Kyu-Guntos, and other "D" guard styles of the late 19th and early 20th century designs. I almost wonder if the shortening didn't come sometime *after* a machi okuri which may have perhaps aleviated earlier damage , i.e. broken hamachi, running kizu, etc.

 

It's also interesting to note that the habaki has no notch in it (called a "kimekomi" if my memory serves correct) but rather the leading edges butt up directly to the ha and mune machis without the inset of common design. This type of habaki sets it further back into the nakago, which may also have been a design choice for a short handled military koshirae of some kind, thus also preserving more of the nakago and mei. Notice the nakago ends right at the last character of "saku" (or: (wo) tsukuru). I don't see these features as coincidental. It would've been too easy to just lop it off where ever necessary as seen frequently on other blades. Is there any koshirae with this sword?

 

The horimono will make this blade a more expensive polish than a comparable blade without horimono. Very very time consuming and intricate work, thus pricier. Yet another reason to have the sword examined prior to deciding whether to polish it or not.

[Fritz]

Ted,

Can you tel me what "Koshirae" is, I'm new tho these terms and don't exactly know what alot of these terms are. I know just enough to get by with these swords.

 

Fritz

[Grey Doffin]

Koshirae is the mounts/furniture.

Grey

[Fritz]

Thanks Grey, yes there are fittings that were on it when I got it, I'll post a picture of them later tonight.

 

Fritz

[Ted Tenold]

Sorry about that Fritz, we get kinda comfortable with the terms and forget that they're not everyday terms to everybody. Maybe the mountings will point to more answers.

[Fritz]

Hey Ted, No problem . Here are the mounts that were on it when I purchased it, I'm pretty sure the tsuba and smaller brass ring are WW2 because they are numbered but the handle and backstrap I think are earlier, not 100%, I do know the backstrap looks just very similar to a police parade sword, but this is what was on it when I got it.

 

Fritz