Examining A "super Rare" Ww2 Sword - I State Cautiously!

[zook]

Folks -  

So this listing of a sword caught my attention.  It is not my sale nor my interest to bid on it, but I am teaching my son about collecting militaria and I have shared that when folks throw around the term "rare"  -  be cautious!     I noticed right away the mix of modern and dated koshirae, if I state that correctly.  Late war saya, etc.      From studying my references and listening to you good folks, I know right off the start that a photo of the full tang is most helpful.    

 

I am really curious how the seller came up with the time frame of when the sword was produced, as he does not offer further definitions of the blade, nor translation of signatures.    I did email seller, and he said he does not know the translation.  He used to travel to Japan for business and a friend gave it to him years ago, and shared when the sword was made.   So, the facts are sketchy, but I don't know this seller and for some reason, I don't think he is trying to deceive.   I believe (hope) that I offer him more detailed feedback on his sword, that he will append his listing appropriately (at least share the update).   I'd like to be helpful in offering a more accurate depiction of what he is trying to sell, as appropriate.... to qualify "super rare."   

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/c1400s-1500s-Super-Rare-Japanese-WW2-Sword-Signed-On-Both-Sides-Of-The-Tang/153414828494?hash=item23b83c81ce:g:PW8AAOSwuG9ciWQG

 

It appears that it may be a gendaito … from my novice eyes and "not great" photos ...opinions?  

If he provides me additional photos or insights, I will be happy to pass along to you.   Thanks or your help and any shared interest on this one.   

 

Dan 

[SteveM]

Signature = 兼定 Kanesada

Date = 昭和十九年三月　Shōwa 19, March (1944)

 

There is nothing that is super rare about this sword. This is not to say it doesn't have value (as an antique, as militaria, as a collectible, etc...). 

 

The first lesson to teach your son: avoid ebay. 

 

Edit: I forgot to add, there should be an arsenal stamp, usually above the peg hole (mekugi-ana). The seller has cropped the photos so that we can't see this area. If I were a collector in militaria, I would ask the seller to send a photo of this area. 

[Mister Gunto]

It looks like a typical WW2-era made blade in typical late-war mounts. I don't see anything older or more "rare" than that. It might be potentially be a gendaito, but without better pics of the hamon, I can't say. 

 

And isn't the inscripted date something like "March 1944? 

 

I think the seller is either going off bad information he has gotten previously from someone, or he's just trying to make more out of what the sword actually is. 

[BANGBANGSAN]

It's not a 500 years old Koto ,it was made by showa smith 岡田兼定( Okada Kanesada)，Showa 19 year(1944) March.

[Bruce Pennington]

Dan,

 

This is one of the most egregiously falsely advertised gunto I've ever seen! The date is March 1944 and the smith is; 兼定 (Kanesada) (I might have the "sada" part wrong). The fittings are called several names - Type 3, '44 fittings, Contingency (Rinji) model - and are not rare at all. There are many of these on the market. Writing on both sides of the nakago (tang) is quite normal.

 

I'll let the nihonto experts chime in on that, but I doubt it. Purely a WWII era, factory blade and fittings.

 

[Ha! I just saw that 3 other guys posted as I was typing!]

[Ed]

He states it is a Shinto blade made by Nobukuni in the 1400's .  

 

Kind of hard to make such claims when it is signed and dated Kanesada, 1944.

 

Just noticed he has this under condition: 

“14th - 15th Century–1945 WW2 Sword Signed on both sides of the tang ”

[zook]

Thanks for the quick feedback! (and SteveM's response had me falling out of my chair laughing with the Ebay comment  !! ) 

 

You verified some of my thoughts! (on period of manufacture!).  I can't assume this seller is trying to deceive, even though he (she) is being presumptuous and using an extremely poor choice of words to describe the sword!    

 

I offered the feedback on the exact translation and (once again) suggested he post a full picture of the tang (for starters) if he wants anyone to bid.  I didn't get into the value of the sword, but I suggested he update his posting with an addendum and attribute it to "ebay member."   I don't think it's appropriate to mention this forum to an ebay seller without permission, so I just told him I got feedback from "several sources" ….    Now, I will hold my breath to see if he updates the listing, I just hope I don't pass out!     …. Oh, and I did tell him it's not "super rare"  

[zook]

..and I didn't have to hold my breath long! .. I got this immediate response (below).   I don't resonate with the travel reference.  I travel to Spain a lot, but I'm no expert in Lladro …  I just like the country     
 

New message Thank you,


Another person gave a completely different maker. The tang goes from 1400's back to the 5th Century. The last person gave a maker and my tang on my sword is no comparison.

I sent the writing of my tang to business associates in Japan that will know better then any of including history books.

I'm quite familiar with WW2 Samurai Swords and this sword has easy to see non comparison to WW2 Katana swords. I've had many WW2 Katana from hand forged to factory made with batch numbers.

Thank you for your information.

But I travel to many countries for my organization and Japan is one of them quite often. By tomorrow I will have exactly what my sword has written on both sides of the tang.

I find humor in the last two Katana swords I sold, one being signed, the other factory made. The signed sword no one questioned, which I feel the translation was not correct, and a factor made batch numbered sword was a no brainier.

Tomorrow will tell me everything when my associates reply.  

Reply

 

[zook]

PS -  I should have edited my post better, but everything below "New message" was the response .... 

[rebcannonshooter]

Hello everyone, I too e-mailed the seller (before checking on NHMB today)  my message to him was exactly what all of you said above. He basicly told me I don't know what I'm talking about, and that the sword is definitely 400+ years old.  I'm glad to see someone else called him out on the ridiculous statements he's making

 

Thanks, Tom  

[zook]

Hey Tom -  I made the mistake of getting into a running dialogue with the guy, … He disagreed with the translation feedback but provided the latest (and last) update below (read from bottom).  I am done with him     .…  …  I gave it the varsity try.  It's a waste (in my opinion) to go into the other elements of the blade.  

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------  

email exchange:  

 

 

Your previous message

Thanks! - good luck with the sale, you may want to post your translations as an addendum to your listing, but that's just my suggestion. Folks like to know the translation, even if it is best guess. Good luck, Dan 

 

 

 

 

32309fl:

He states the name says "GYOTEL" on the opposite side of the tang, which in rare cases this may be the owner of this Samurai sword.

S

 

 

 

 

Your previous message

Hi S - 
and did those same associates translate the other side? … what did they say one the name of the sword smith?  Dan 

 

 

 

 

32309fl:

Updated on my Samurai Sword. Several associates stated the writing on the tang is written as such.

- Year March 1944 19 years of Showa era. This KANJI is Showa 19 years 3 months.
- The KANJI is only a date and not the manufacturing date. Which means this sword could be a 14th Century Sword.

Best Regards - S 

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

LOL!!! Thanks for the laugh! Yes, of course someone would take a 500 yr old blade and put a WWII date on it!!! Makes complete sense to me ........ [will SOMEBODY silence those voices in my head!!!!]

[SteveM]

This guy is not operating in good faith. 

He is presenting himself as an authority, which he isn't, and he is presenting his goods as a 400-500 year old item, which it isn't. 

 

Normally we call this "fraud". 

https://www.bochettoandlentz.com/criminal-fraud-vs-civil-fraud-whats-difference/

 

 

 

[rebcannonshooter]

Hi all,

I just got a reply from the guy and he gave me the same line of B.S. His friend translates it to "GyoTel" and says the Showa date was put on later, and he refuses to admit that its a WW2 blade and mounts!

 

Tom

[reeder]

We all know it won’t sell. I have plenty of nice swords up for sale at good prices still. A couple of new collectors & General militaria dealers have offered $300-$500...

 

Did anyone see the fake naval kyu-gunto that was sold on eBay for $4200? My favorite part of the add, “this is definitely not a fake.”

[PNSSHOGUN]

"I am not a sword expert, but I do know enough about swords to be dangerous."

[Logan09]

This guy is a complete moron. He now added a huge list that he has been contacted by "trolls" who think they know more than then the Japanese street vendor he probably bought this from.

 

Also goes back to saying this style "tang" dates back to the 5th century.

[Brian]

Oh well, he has pulled the auction for now. Hopefully to consider that maybe some know more than him and his silly Japanese associate.
Not like we are guessing here, there is no doubt about the evaluation of that sword.

He does have a lot of other listings, some of which are quite nice (non Japanese) items.

[Mister Gunto]

Aaaaaand he's back : https://www.ebay.com/itm/Super-Rare-Japanese-used-in-WW2-Sword-Signed-On-Both-Sides-Of-The-Tang/153415772305?hash=item23b84ae891:g:6EIAAOSw~SJcioik&frcectupt=true

 

I now withdraw my earlier benefit of the doubt for the seller. 

[Stephen]

At half price....lol

[zook]

UGH !! -  I read Brian's note and I thought he did the right thing (remove listing) and we saved a bad thing from happening to someone!  

.... I honestly was thinking that maybe this isn't a bad chap, he just got "duped" by someone on a bad sale and he is trying to recover his funds.  He'd recover some of his investment if he would just break it down and sell it as items in proper context!  

 

However,  he labeled me a "troll" and continue to re-shape facts.  

 

He reminds me of a quote I heard once in a movie,  "I agree with the truth as I interpret it"  ... 
Dan 

[Logan09]

eBay won't care about this either. I don't doubt someone will bid this up and over $1k.

 

Reminds me of the "17th century Tachi" that sold for over $1300 last week that I told the seller was actually a Paul Chen Bushido sword that cost about $700 new. They didn't care.

[Tom Darling]

The  tsuka same looks like plastic, menuki?

 

He does know how to write them up.

 

Tom D.

[Shugyosha]

"I am not a sword expert, but I do know enough about swords to be dangerous."

 

He only got that 50% correct.

[Bazza]

The  tsuka same looks like plastic, menuki?

 

...

 

Tom D.

The same is celluloid, I believe, and not uncommon on later War period Guntou.

 

BaZZa.

[Jean]

Being an ebay addict only for glassware (no fakes), I’d like to know what is ebay policy concerning fakes being posted for genuine articles cannot ebay be sued for allowing such things?

[vajo]

The ito binding and the same is so ugly.

[Brian]

eBay generally only allows fakes to be reported or action to be taken if the original manufacturer is the one reporting. Good luck with that

[raynor]

I confess, I sometimes get my giggles browsing ebay auctions.

 

This one is bad, actual fraud, where as those $80-90.000 Chinese elaborate fakes with terminator steel etc. are just good fun.

[Eds]

I know that this is an old thread however I thought that I would add to it.  One of my swords is a older brother to the above mentioned item. I ran your thread while researching a translation that Thomas provided. 

 

兼定 = Kanesada.

昭和十八年十二月 = 1943 December

 

There isn't a Hamon that I can see.  The Habaki is on pretty solid and there looks like scratch marks where a previous owner tried to pry it off.  I can't get it off and I haven't tried very hard.  The Tsuba and Seppas look similar to the above mentioned sword. Has a similar Tsuka however it's missing the silk wrap, ray skin and Menuki(s).

 

No Arsenal stamp that I can see on the tang or markings on the spine that I can discern.  I've posted pictures of both sides.  I took the pictures today.

 

With all that said, I could use advice on where to get the Tsuka rewrapped.  In the USA would be nice

 

VR

Ed