Unusual Open Work Tsuba

[Yukihiro]

Hello to all,

 

This is a gunto tsuba I found last week in Paris - it looks pretty non standard to me, so I would like to have your opinion.

 

Regards,

 

Didier

[vajo]

Platte is cut, holes are drilled and not boars eye. Not legit for me. Its fake.

[Yukihiro]

Thank you for your reply, Chris.

At any rate, I wasn't able to find one with the same sakura on it anywhere on the Internet. It does look old, though, and not artificially aged, so who knows...

[PNSSHOGUN]

An original with holes instead of boars eye:

[Yukihiro]

Same principle, indeed, with holes drilled through the plaque. The sakura on mine are different, with their central crown, from any I have seen so far. Were there "non regulation" gunto tsuba made by smaller workshops or could this one, if it is legit, be a very early example ?

[PNSSHOGUN]

Mine is from a fairly early sword. Beyond that I haven't seen any others.

[Yukihiro]

Well, I think I have found a partial answer to my question : they are not sakura, but ume flowers, like on this Edo tsuba.

[TETSUGENDO]

Although there are exceptions in nature, the convention in Japanese art is that Sakura blossoms have notched petals and Prunus blossom petals are rounded.

 

Cheers,

   -S-

[Yukihiro]

Alright, so they are sakura after all!

Thank you for putting things right

[vajo]

Come on gentleman, this is not a genuine Japanese tsuba.

 

 

Look at this fittings..

http://www.swordforum.com/vb4/showthread.php?115225-Help-with-WWII-gunto-with-serial-number-quot-0-quot

[TETSUGENDO]

Chris,

 

As far as the authenticity of the tsuba itself, this is an area much more yours than mine, apparently this is not a one off.... there are variants of these about.

 

 

Cheers,

    -S-

[Yukihiro]

Unfortunately, I cannot see the fittings you are referring to, Chris. I had noticed that the holes were somewhat off centre. The blossoms on the tsuba don't look particularly crude to me.

[BANGBANGSAN]

Didier

Maybe it's from one of those"Emergency made"or "Territory made "sword.It doesn't look true Japanese made one to me.

Here is some photos from a emergency made sword ,it has"應”（emergency）mark on the balde.The pierced tsuba looks very crude,not  exactly same as the one you post ,but kinda close.

 

 

[TETSUGENDO]

Didier, here is a picture of the tsuba Chris had in his link.

                                                                               -S-

 

 

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

20190307_074124.jpgDidier, here is a picture of the tsuba Chris had in his link.

-S-

Ha! I saw this and thought "Wow, someone has a tsuba just like mine!" Then I realized it IS mine!

 

First, Didier, I believe the flower on your tsuba is the Chinese plum of WWII. Which COULD mean these fittings were made for an officer in the Chinese military working for or with the Japanese. I have little to no knowledge of that aspect of the war, but I do know that such things were done. I've posted a picture of the plum blossom.

 

John, it's interesting to see your tsuba with the rounded holes. The fine artwork of the cherry blossoms appear legit to me, as opposed to the poor imitation on mine. Yours looks legit, while mine looks like a really bad fake. In fact, the rest of the fittings on the "gunto" mine is on are equally horrific. The blade is lighter weight than normal and it's hamon looks like it was applied with a steel wire spinning brush. The nakago looks like it was melted with acid to hide the fact that it wasn't a Japanese blade. John's tsuba reminds me of the fact that fakers copy something that was original. So now I'm more convinced that mine was a fake rather than just a REALLY badly crafted gunto.

[Yukihiro]

Thanks to everybody for the input

I find the ones that have been posted on here rather cruder than mine, but I'll search the Net for other examples (whether fake or genuine) to get to the bottom of it.

[Dave R]

Didier

Maybe it's from one of those"Emergency made"or "Territory made "sword.It doesn't look true Japanese made one to me.

Here is some photos from a emergency made sword ,it has"應”（emergency）mark on the balde.The pierced tsuba looks very crude,not  exactly same as the one you post ,but kinda close.

 

 To the best of my knowledge the one you show is one of the FEW genuine WW2 Chinese made Gunto. 

[vajo]

Genuine from Chinese WW2? Where is the difference between made in China after war? I would not put these tsuba on a gunto. For around 120 Dollar you get really nice genuine open work tsuba. 

 

Emergency sword sounds funny    (incase of invasion break the glass and press the button to grab the sword)

[BANGBANGSAN]

 To the best of my knowledge the one you show is one of the FEW genuine WW2 Chinese made Gunto. 

Made in Mukden arsenal,for Manchukuo&Wang Jingwei's Wuhan Nationalist government officer.

[Dave R]

Bruce, do you remember these guys? A Chinese WW2 Gunto is militaria rather than Nihonto, but still greatly different from a modern Chinese made shinken.

 

"Emergency swords" do exist, and are a subject all of their own... They are also the very devil to differentiate from the various categories of fake, so I doubt I will ever bother to buy one.......

[BANGBANGSAN]

Bruce, do you remember these guys? A Chinese WW2 Gunto is militaria rather than Nihonto, but still greatly different from a modern Chinese made shinken.

 

"Emergency swords" do exist, and are a subject all of their own... They are also the very devil to differentiate from the various categories of fake, so I doubt I will ever bother to buy one.......

Dave

Thanks!I was looking for this photo.They should be Wang Jingwei's Wuhan Nationalist government 's army.They imported some German equipment as well, like M35 helmet shon in the photo.

Also,that "應”could be  應需（On demand）instead of 應急（emergency）.

Trystan

[vajo]

The sword on that photo looks like a genuine Type98, why you know it that this is a chinese made ww2 sword?

[Dave R]

B

 

The sword on that photo looks like a genuine Type98, why you know it that this is a chinese made ww2 sword?

 

 Impossible to "know" but I hold that opinion because there is a lot of evidence that the Japanese "overlords" would have had an absolute Cow* if a non Japanese citizen had a real Shin-Gunto. They were very insistent that real Shin-Gunto and Nihonto were only in the hands of IJA and Gunzoku etc personnel. Local made copies were acceptable  for the subject peoples, but not the real thing.  Nihonto and Gunto could be bestowed as a gift to a respected individual, but  not up for grabs by a foreign subject.

 

(Cow* English vernacular for a fit of fury)

[vajo]

This guys fight against the Japanese i think. I belive that they care not about which sword it is.

[Dave R]

This guys fight against the Japanese i think. I belive that they care not about which sword it is.

 

 Not Wuhan Nationalist. The photo is labelled as... "Japanese Ta-Tao troops, criminals and youngsters making up an untrained military, in formation behind an officer with a Samurai sword, World War Two, Japan, circa 1939-1945" .There were three governments in China at this time, and a variety of warlords owing loyalty to non. Communist, Nationalist, and a Japanese subject "Nationalist" and then you get the individuals trying to hack out their own little island of independence. . Very complicated, and beyond the scope of this conversation.

 

I am personally fascinated by this era  and nation, but much is really not germane to this thread.

[BANGBANGSAN]

 Not Wuhan Nationalist. The photo is labelled as... "Japanese Ta-Tao troops, criminals and youngsters making up an untrained military, in formation behind an officer with a Samurai sword, World War Two, Japan, circa 1939-1945" .There were three governments in China at this time, and a variety of warlords owing loyalty to non. Communist, Nationalist, and a Japanese subject "Nationalist" and then you get the individuals trying to hack out their own little island of independence. . Very complicated, and beyond the scope of this conversation.

 

I am personally fascinated by this era  and nation, but much is really not germane to this thread.

Dave

You're right.In China,we call Wuhan Nationalist 偽政府 puppet government，and their Army 偽軍 puppet army,they work with Japanese.

There are still some of these Mukden arsenal made 偽軍刀 puppet army sword around in China.But Chinese collectors not really into these sword because of the poor detail&quality,even they're much less compare to the Japanese Gunto.

Trystan

[vajo]

Ah ok i understand. Thanks for clearance. 

[Bruce Pennington]

Bruce, do you remember these guys? A Chinese WW2 Gunto is militaria rather than Nihonto, but still greatly different from a modern Chinese made shinken.

 

"Emergency swords" do exist, and are a subject all of their own... They are also the very devil to differentiate from the various categories of fake, so I doubt I will ever bother to buy one.......

Excellent Dave, yes. That's who I was refering to. Other occupied/allied Asian groups made swords for their cooperating forces too, but the Chinese-made ones seem to be a higher quality and did a better job of replicating many of the fittings features of a Japanese gunto. These of course, throw us collectors for a loop today, because of all the fakery out there, but Didier's original tsuba in this thread strikes me as something made for Chinese collaborating troops.

[vajo]

  Sorry guys, I'm to stupid to follow. Chinese who made gunto in the style of gunto which are not Japanese made. That sounds for me like fake gunto. I got headache.

[Dave R]

  Sorry guys, I'm to stupid to follow. Chinese who made gunto in the style of gunto which are not Japanese made. That sounds for me like fake gunto. I got headache.

 

 It's complicated, like the politics of that time and place.