Less Sword Shows?

[Stephen]

https://blog.yuhindo.com/unpleasant-medicine-for-sword-shows/

 

The Shogun muses.

[Curran]

I agree with him.

 

At least one of the sword shows needs to fold in. For years I thought it would be the Chicago show, but Mark and others greatly revived it.

Though I had some nice finds in Tampa this year, the show itself is clearly struggling for many of the reasons Darcy described. It may be the one to get toe-tagged.

[Stephen]

Mr C

In your youth do remember how many sword shows there was. count from my days was 10.

[DRDave]

It would be interesting to compare stats between the DTI and SFTK shows.  Are there a greater percentage of young people at the DTI?  Are there more international? Do a greater percentage of swords trade hands?

[Ganko]

The SF Sword Show is in the worst possible location if you would like the general public to attend. The Burlingame/Millbrae area is primarily filled with retired airline people. Their will never be many attendees who just walked in to see what Japanese Swords are about. A much better location would be at the San Jose Convention Center or the Santa Clara Convention Center, both of which are in close proximity to the SJ Airport. That area is filled with a much younger crowd with significant disposable income which no doubt would have an interest in Japanese swords if they didn't have to drive through the horrendous traffic to get to Burlingame. Having lived in the area and attended the show for about 40 years, I believe this is the only viable solution. The city of SF Moscone Center or whatever would be a poor choice in my opinion.

 My thoughts anyway

  TomC

[ChrisW]

The only solution to any financial security of a collecting hobby is to keep bringing in new collectors and moving shows to more accessible areas. Just look at stamp collecting as a prime example (or so I would think).

[Mark S.]

I disagree with the premise that viewing swords on-line is anywhere near as good as having them in hand. I suppose if you have a lot of experience already, it is much easier to spot good and bad through photos... but for the newbie or even someone with that dangerous ‘little to moderate bit of knowledge’, there is no substitute for blades in hand.

[Curran]

Mr C

In your youth do remember how many sword shows there was. count from my days was 10.

 

The length of time from when I first started collecting (A) to when I actually had money to go to a show (B) was 10 or 11 years.

In the interim I was working through college [5 year plan!], working illegally/semi-illegally internationally [which means paid nothing], and then interning for 2 years [paid next to nothing, living in low income housing]. Finally at point (B) I upgraded from 2 tsuba to a wakizashi with koshirae.

 

At time (A) there were quite a number of shows. By time (B) there were only 3 shows, with the rare mini-show attached to an NTHK shinsa in Jersey City.

Currently there are 4 shows? I'd like to attend the San Fran show, but it falls right in Hurricane season. ie. Not happening. Last time I did, it was circa Hurricane Katrina.

Darcy is right about May being a good time for a big USA sword show.

[raynor]

I read an old interview with the current head of the NTHK who I believe also headed the Shinsa team in Tampa recently and he said that for the US shows when he started over 40 years ago it was mostly Japanese Americans in the crowd.

 

Then as those people passed away over time, mostly European Americans took over and there's been a overall steady decline.

 

It might be the monetary steepness of the hobby that deter new people to actually get hands on with it versus just participating through reading, as well as a lack of interest without something that connects you to the field.

 

Personally I got into this by a mix of practicing martial arts and being very picky when it comes to art, tools for any purpose and quality - nihonto fuses high quality from its workmanship and design evolution into highly evolved functional art and as such hit a lot of buttons for me personally.

 

That it's a well of learning guaranteed to remain deep through a lifetime, like martial arts, also resonates.

 

Plus I'm a sucker for history. That I know is a big field, maybe affiliating with history foras is a way to generate interest and participation beyond dedicated sword or military arenas.

 

I know most people who see and especially hold a good nihonto wont soon forget it, maybe much of the material has over time become less acessible, amassed in fewer hands?

[Tom Darling]

Sword shows 40 - 45 yrs ago, I remember well, 90% attendees were Americans in their 30's and 40's. I saw a dealer from Texas getting out of a cab with ten gun cases loaded with 100-150 swords. He ran full page Buying ads in the Shotgun News. Gunto  swords were $50.00 to $75.00.  It seems to me they are (most desired) the stars of today, go figure. Darcy is 100% correct. 

 

Tom D.

[Ted Tenold]

I disagree with the premise that viewing swords on-line is anywhere near as good as having them in hand. I suppose if you have a lot of experience already, it is much easier to spot good and bad through photos... but for the newbie or even someone with that dangerous ‘little to moderate bit of knowledge’, there is no substitute for blades in hand.

 

 

While I understand and agree with your fundamental view, the variables demand some consideration. I don't think Darcy is establishing a premise that studying swords in images is nearly as good as in hand.  He offers a casual estimate of 70% as about as good as one can expect to garner from a two dimensional image of a three dimensional art form.  Considering that 70% is a C- in academic grading and just barely passing for credit in some subjects, it's a testimony that viewing in hand is what makes the difference .  The best images possible of a Tokubetsu Juyo can't capture the full dimension of what it has to offer visually in person, so I think that 70% is fair to call a ceiling until some new visual technology can get us to 80%.  I feel reaching even that by viewing photos on line rely on some pretty important metrics, and the variety of viewers' experiences have to be groomed with a stroke of Occam's razor;

 

1) Quality and or importance of the item shown in images.  A sword which is the one and only Tokubetsu Juyo of it's kind, is truely one of a kind.  A turd is a turd.  

 

2) Quality of the images.  Professional images of a turd, will likely get you closer to 100% of the viewing experience as in hand, with an extra 10% on top for the time you'll never get back and the image you'll never be able to un-see.  Bad images of great swords will fail to even get one to a D+ and 69%.  Enter the need for exceptional images on the first level, and a venue to hold a sword in hand to see what the other 30% contributes to acheiving Nihonto bliss.

 

3)  Authentic condition of the item being viewed.  By "authentic" I mean the true-to-life, as seen in hand, state of condition of the item itself, in images having not been altered, retouched, or just ommited from view.  If the images were a Hershey bar, and you received a turd in the mail, well.... you get the drift.

 

4) Quality of the viewing platform.  High resolution screen, or something else?  On a bad screen, the best images of great stuff can't acheive full impression, while turds may get the benefit of the doubt.

 

I concur with Darcy's views on shows, the reasons for their demise, and the course they should be steered toward these days.

[Ooitame]

Having come from the Tampa show I will add my 2 cents... well maybe 1. Presentation, presentation, presentation! A table full of swords laying about with little to no info or presentation will draw less attention, especially for new comers and on lookers. This may be all well for the veterans who can pull a sword out and know pretty well what period, school, etc... I did notice there were two setups which had stands and lights presenting the items and a little info. An example, was a stand draped with a rising sun flag, lights over head to display items, and a little info. What I noticed is that this was a place of general interest. Flashy things draws peoples interest, sort of like a musem setup where you can interact by handling the items, learn, and purchase.

[Jwrussell]

I disagree with the premise that viewing swords on-line is anywhere near as good as having them in hand. I suppose if you have a lot of experience already, it is much easier to spot good and bad through photos... but for the newbie or even someone with that dangerous ‘little to moderate bit of knowledge’, there is no substitute for blades in hand.

 

Mark, I do not disagree with you in the least.  With that said, the online availability of swords now is simply too enticing for the newer collector. As you say, there is no substitute for blade in hand. Even books can only go so far. And for the newer collector, the ability to get a blade in hand...almost ANY blade, is very difficult to resist. Especially with some of the lower pricing out there. It may not be the best, or even a good route to go, but it is too EASY.

 

And I would dissent with the comment in the article that the internet viewing allows for someone to "quench their thirst", so to speak, with viewing blades. I don't agree that this is what is keeping people from shows. Instead, I believe it is this statement:

 

"It is easier easy to buy a sword from a dealer in Tokyo who doesn’t even speak English than it is to get on a plane and fly to a regional show and sift through the stuff at the shows and then purchase."

[Peter Bleed]

American sword shows are NOT good places to see and display fine swords. One may try that, thank you very much, but basically, a weekend event can only be a place to "flash" and scan swords.. Sometimes you can look closely and even discuss particular items with others . But basically, a weekend "event" has to be about discovery - ie. buying and selling.

In the old days we could all do some local discovery and use shows as mid level selling/trading opportunities. That doesn't work anymore because 1) discovery is tough, and 2) the market is pretty flat.

What should be do?

My I suggest that we need MORE and different sword shows.

MORE shows, Anybody who can count 6 other collectors within 2 hours of their home ought to organize a sword show. Cheap, easy, and FUN. The trouble may be that our model for a "show" is big. The Minneapolis show seems to have been well received - by the small number of folks who were there. Heck, two guys and a juto makes a good show, screw  the motel! The New York crowd seems to be moving is a great direction..., Arkansas maybe not so good.

DIFFERENT shows, The need to see new and potentially good swords, ie DISCOVERY, can no longer happen at sword only shows. Thus, I think the sword crowd ought to find a way to meet one another AND OTHERS by going to BIG antiques arms shows. If there was an area with a group of Japanese sword collectors at an good arms show, we could have it both ways.

Peter

[Jwrussell]

Having come from the Tampa show I will add my 2 cents... well maybe 1. Presentation, presentation, presentation! A table full of swords laying about with little to no info or presentation will draw less attention, especially for new comers and on lookers. This may be all well for the veterans who can pull a sword out and know pretty well what period, school, etc... I did notice there were two setups which had stands and lights presenting the items and a little info. An example, was a stand draped with a rising sun flag, lights over head to display items, and a little info. What I noticed is that this was a place of general interest. Flashy things draws peoples interest, sort of like a musem setup where you can interact by handling the items, learn, and purchase.

 

I have to absolutely agree with this! Again, newbie-eyes, so take this with however many grains of sodium needed. While I understand and appreciate the need to protect the blades in these situations, there were so many instances that deterred someone from interacting. I don't know if I am alone in this, but being new, I'm fairly "shy" in these environments when it comes to walking up and just diving in. Examples:

 

• A couple of tables had blades lined up on the tables that were covered with blankets or some sort of sheets. I believe it was because of the table-owners being away, but in at least one case there was someone behind the table talking to a "customer". I'm not going to walk up and pick up that sheet to see what's under it, so that's a potential loss of someone having any interest in what you are offering.
• Prices. I'm sure this is hotly debated in every field out there, but I dislike asking for pricing in these situations. I believe it is well known that everything is negotiable, especially in shows like this. Price your items. It is a waste of time for me to ask about an item priced in the X range when my budget is the Y range. And I have no interest in handling something only to find out it is way out of my price range.
• Saya, Saya, Saya. Sigh. (sorry, couldn't resist). Again, understanding it is not always practical to have every blade showcased, having a large number of shirasaya lined up on a table with little or no information with them is discouraging. This goes back to the discussion of online sales above, you at least to get to see the blade to some degree immediately. If I am in search of a certain sugata, I don't have to unsheathe multiple blades to find out if one of them is a match.

Again, newbie thoughts.

[Jwrussell]

 

My I suggest that we need MORE and different sword shows.

MORE shows, Anybody who can count 6 other collectors within 2 hours of their home ought to organize a sword show. Cheap, easy, and FUN. The trouble may be that our model for a "show" is big. The Minneapolis show seems to have been well received - by the small number of folks who were there. Heck, two guys and a juto makes a good show, screw  the motel! The New York crowd seems to be moving is a great direction..., Arkansas maybe not so good.

DIFFERENT shows, The need to see new and potentially good swords, ie DISCOVERY, can no longer happen at sword only shows. Thus, I think the sword crowd ought to find a way to meet one another AND OTHERS by going to BIG antiques arms shows. If there was a an area with a group of Japanese sword collectors at an good arms show, we could have it both ways.

Peter

 

Well said, sir!

[Tom Darling]

Ditto.

 

Well done.

 

 

Tom D.

[Gakusee]

The golden days of the 1950s-1980s when people could “discover” JuTo level and thereabouts for $100 are gone. One nowadays should aim to go for the education, especially if there are lectures and hands-on study, and the social aspect. And also if looking for mid-level swords reasonably overpriced. It is a better bet to engage here as here there are some very good bargains.

[Vermithrax16]

I have to absolutely agree with this! Again, newbie-eyes, so take this with however many grains of sodium needed. While I understand and appreciate the need to protect the blades in these situations, there were so many instances that deterred someone from interacting. I don't know if I am alone in this, but being new, I'm fairly "shy" in these environments when it comes to walking up and just diving in. Examples:

 

• A couple of tables had blades lined up on the tables that were covered with blankets or some sort of sheets. I believe it was because of the table-owners being away, but in at least one case there was someone behind the table talking to a "customer". I'm not going to walk up and pick up that sheet to see what's under it, so that's a potential loss of someone having any interest in what you are offering.
• Prices. I'm sure this is hotly debated in every field out there, but I dislike asking for pricing in these situations. I believe it is well known that everything is negotiable, especially in shows like this. Price your items. It is a waste of time for me to ask about an item priced in the X range when my budget is the Y range. And I have no interest in handling something only to find out it is way out of my price range.
• Saya, Saya, Saya. Sigh. (sorry, couldn't resist). Again, understanding it is not always practical to have every blade showcased, having a large number of shirasaya lined up on a table with little or no information with them is discouraging. This goes back to the discussion of online sales above, you at least to get to see the blade to some degree immediately. If I am in search of a certain sugata, I don't have to unsheathe multiple blades to find out if one of them is a match.

Again, newbie thoughts.

I like what Eric and Jason are saying. Having never been I would want those things they suggest.

 

For me and swords, I usually will spend 2-4 weeks studying a sword online, requesting other pictures and thinking it over before I buy (well not the last one, 1 day decision, BUT I had studied that sword for so long previous) so a show is not going to be a place I am going to buy a blade. Fittings? No problem.

[Stephen]

Coming from a guy who's never been..lol never say never grasshopper. With your smarts n training...you might find something on a sellers table who doesnt know what he has. Happens more than you know.

[b.hennick]

I know of a Rai Kuniuki and Norishige picked up at sword shows. They were in tables of a dealer and a collector.

[raynor]

I'd love to go to a show as there are no other opportunities to see different blades in hand. Anything else is shadows and dust..

[Surfson]

Things have changed a lot.  In the 80s, dealers would come from Japan, buy hundreds of swords and bring them back.  The GIs were still alive but aging and swords were coming out of the woodwork.  Now the GIs are virtually all gone, and most of the swords are too.  Fortunately, collectors in the US managed to hang on to a fair number of swords though, resisting the temptation to sell them to Japanese dealers.  With time, prices in the US and prices in Japan began to equilibrate.  Now, with the internet, as Darcy points out, collectors can buy straight from Japan. 

 

The problem is that it is no longer possible for a young person with little or no money to hustle and find swords cheaply and build an early collection on sweat equity.  

[Lingonberry]

Cost is definitely the biggest barrier to young newbies. Millenials are poorer than gen X or boombers and most of us will have to work until 70 to retire due to higher debt, fewer assets, lower wages, and social security maybe not being able to pay out. https://bigthink.com/culture-religion/millennials-poorer-generations-fed

Many people in my generation have tens of thousands of dollars in student loans and that includes people who got degrees in business, law, engineering, etc., not just the liberal arts majors.

 

(On that note, please don't move the SF show near the silicon valley kids... then NOBODY will be able to afford nihonto!)

 

One thing I've noticed is there doesn't seem to be much effort put forth to advertise nihonto to, well... anyone, not just millenials. You basically have to chance across the NMB, a dealer's page, happen to meet a collector, or stumble across a facebook group to be introduced to the hobby.

 

Another thing is that it seems there are many collectors out there who are in the same region but may not be aware of one another. It was only recently that I became aware of some folks in the general area and set up a (tiny) facebook group as a forum to try and organize the occasional meetup.

 

My humble suggestion: If you're involved in a local club, try reaching out to other groups related to Japan or Japanese culture in your area. Organizations like the Japan America Society, Museums that have nihonto related exhibits, kendo clubs, iaido clubs, etc. Hell, maybe even try to reach out to anime conventions and ask to be able to do a panel.

 

Any time I speak to people my age about nihonto the first things we talk about are

A) It is, in fact, legal to export them from Japan (you just need paperwork), and

B) You don't need to be a millionaire in a mansion to collect.

[Jussi Ekholm]

This seemed to be mostly for US sword shows so I cannot comment on them as I've never been to one. I can agree with the view that going to Japan is a priority over other travels to me. And living with limited budget going to Japan hands down beats going to USA for me.

 

As an European I was really happy that we finally got a big show in Europe (possibly comparable to US regional shows) at Utrecht. An it was amazing experience meeting old friends and new ones too. To be honest not once did I even think about buying anything during the entire event. Social aspect and seeing some items were the things that took my time. And I got the feeling during the event it was probably lot less buying & selling going on than in the US shows.

 

Only thing about the show that left me puzzled was the lack of people attending... I was really surprised how small the number of people was. I was thinking it would tick all the right boxes. First major show in Europe in a long time X - central location in Europe with easy access from around Europe X - Museum style display with amazing items on display X - Great and informative lectures X - Lots of dealers from Europe, Japan and America attending X - Some great items for sale X - Great time slot during the summer X - I think it is really important for us as a small community to show our support for the shows.

 

Well swords are pretty outdated in the modern world. Most young people will find this hobby incredibly boring. And I agree you'll get lot faster enjoyment at fragging on Apex Legends / Fortnite, swiping through Youtube/other similar stuff etc. It is common problem that children and youth get addicted to fast and ever changing satisfaction on things. The attention span gets shorter as they are used to so fast pleasure on things that give way too much pleasure to brains at once all the time. And I doubt that anyone will be able to make Japanese swords a hit among people. The person(s) posessing skills like that would most likely have already succeeded in something else they are doing.

 

[Guest]

I note with interest all the comments - like Curran it took me years to even start to collect at a truly satisfying level and given my humble position I occupy in this world I will never be among the Juto crowd. Most compelling for me was the “ hunger” comment - as a new student of the sword I would go anywhere, anytime for any amount of money to satisfy my sword Jones.

 

Wherever we are in the world and what ever the time of year we need to be working on igniting that hunger in the hearts of new collectors. Acquisition is the easy part these days and few want to sit thru lectures or invest in huge libraries to enjoy their new car or new Nihonto. We need to bring extra value to that one time purchase, we need to make life-long members out of the casual student.

 

Sword shows don’t have to die unless they do not evolve, this conversation has already been under discussion in the NCJSC before the article cited by the OP and continues even now. The Japanese sword world has been upended by the To-ken Joshi phenomenon, a thing which was completely unplanned and unexpected. Taking this as an example we need to find ways to inspire new students/collectors meeting them on their own turf, injecting Nihonto into the places they frequent literally or virtually.

 

As someone who still has the burning hunger of my youth I see these as golden times when we can finally utilize the tools of a 21st century world to pass on to a world of youth the joy, the fascination, the wonder that is the ancient worlds most sublime weapon, the Nihonto.

 

-tch

[Stephen]

Well said Tom

[Blazeaglory]

I don't understand it. I mean, with the popularity of movies like Blade, Kill Bill, The Last Samurai, etc... you would think that the Nihonto market would be exploding.

 

I do get that "video killed the radio star" so to speak, like ebay killed the comic book and sports cards markets. I would assume the same thing happens with any collectible. But with Nihonto, I would think that the allure would outweigh the costs. I mean, where else can you get an AWESOME piece of history that is, in some cases, over 500 years old and with a koshirae that is over 100yo, for such low prices (really rare swords aside)?

 

I for one would prefer to have the item IN HAND to examine and feel as compared to online. I think its the mindset of today's youth/young professionals. They want everything NOW NOW NOW and if they cant see it ASAP on their phone, they will just move on to the next thing. Short attention spans maybe? It is kind of annoying tho.

 

I guess the market ebbs and flows huh? But I would hate to see in person shows go away

[lonely panet]

IMHO

 

less shows because theres less peaple interested

 

less bargins to be found at shows 

 

the hobby is  becoming less affordable 

 

less young people are being introduced to the hobby (addiction).

 

I have said in the past, collecting nihonto in Australia will go the way of Pigeon Racing. more people are leaving the hoppy via natural attrition then younger people can gain interest.

its easy to point out the flaws, but I really think more exposer is needed.  either smaller shows more regular or actual monthly meetings, kantai  ETC. s**t if shooting clubs can survive in Australia against all the hard pushing from the anti gun lobby, why cant nihonto ??

I know there will be people say it wont work or say I cant be bothered but if no body attempts anything, the hobby will eventually become like the Tassie tiger. where somebody claims they spotted a nihonto collector but with out photographic evidence they cant prove it hahahah (joke )

 

I have always pushed this in south Australia but with only a hand full of serious collectors, whom don't always agree its hard. 

it sadly will always be easer to fly to Tokyo and spend money in there economy, instead of ours

[Ken-Hawaii]

 

 

Anybody who can count 6 other collectors within 2 hours of their home ought to organize a sword show. Cheap, easy, and FUN.

Why do I think that you've never put on a show?

 

Our show took 27 of us four months to arrange, & we were very smart about it. Nothing for sale, one-way/one-pass through, & we had 1,000 attendees. Our limitation was parking, & the temple has a huge parking lot. We did it a second time, a year later, but I doubt there will be a third any time soon.