Adoka Nari Bachi

[Luc T]

try modern art Brian! 

[DaveT]

Well as I said I have been sitting back and watching this one unfold.

I'd like to say this and I know it will ruffle feathers. Thank god we have Ian Bottomley.

Luc, please think about what you write, you, John and Uwe are all directors of the JAS and what you write can be perceived by the naive as authoritative, especially when you rally together and support each other thoughts. Ian B has been factual and evidenced his findings based on what is in front of him and of course referencing Dr Sasama, you guys have been speculative, subjective and distracting by diverting the focus to a hachi made my another smith, from another location in another style. Many believe that Dr Sasama's works are put down by the Japanese Armour Society due to his departure, is this now filtrating through to your branch? For me, this venture into the woods held no value or contribution to the thread or would help the owner to authenticate or understand what he has. The sword guys would not allow a Gassen Sadayoshi to be misidentified as a Shin Gunto fact, the Dunning-Kruger effect comes to mind, so maybe we can learn from them and accept that is okay to take on another opinion if validated.

Uwe, my interest as a Katchushi. What we have here is an example of a solid 8 plate hachi that has undergone a customised make-over. It has been sent to a lacquerer to be transformed. We see this type of folly in nerigawa hachi that are moulded then made to resemble suji-bachi. The process would be for the urushi-shi to build the suji from hemp rope and kokuso, then cover it in urushi. In doing this the rear of the hachi could have been raised with filler to create the goshozan shape, without inspection from the inside we will not know, so for this example, we cannot make any assumptions to the Smith based on the outside appearance. The tameshi is of interest as we know that teppo paranoia was sweeping through the edo period and katchushi were hammering-in the test dents as a part of the construction to reflect its robust qualities, we also know that stronger ken were used only for the test shot and the rest of the hachi was standard iron. With kokuso filling the outer dents we cannot be sure if the tameshi is artificial or not. The front of the hachi shows a double Tsunomoto, but in between, there is another Ana, it's rather bulky and much larger than you would expect to see for a single tsunomoto, it has not been covered up during the conversion so that is a mystery of sorts. Next up the ukebare is fitted to the front section of the koshimaki, its stitched in place, most suji have the front of the ukebare glued in place due to the underneath of the mabezashi. Now if you look at the Miage-or you can see that the byo terminate there and are covered in shu-urushi. So this would indicate that the mabezashi is not original to the hachi and is an element of the conversion.

[YOJIMBO]

exact !

Well as I said I have been sitting back and watching this one unfold.

I'd like to say this and I know it will ruffle feathers. Thank god we have Ian Bottomley.

Luc, please think about what you write, you, John and Uwe are all directors of the JAS and what you write can be perceived by the naive as authoritative, especially when you rally together and support each other thoughts. Ian B has been factual and evidenced his findings based on what is in front of him and of course referencing Dr Sasama, you guys have been speculative, subjective and distracting by diverting the focus to a hachi made my another smith, from another location in another style. Many believe that Dr Sasama's works are put down by the Japanese Armour Society due to his departure, is this now filtrating through to your branch? For me, this venture into the woods held no value or contribution to the thread or would help the owner to authenticate or understand what he has. The sword guys would not allow a Gassen Sadayoshi to be misidentified as a Shin Gunto fact, the Dunning-Kruger effect comes to mind, so maybe we can learn from them and accept that is okay to take on another opinion if validated.
 

 

[uwe]

Ian,

I accept your honored opinion, although I do not share it! Thanks for the interesting discussion. Think we all increased our learning curve!

 

Dave,

agree with the second part of your post (that starts with Uwe....)!

[DaveT]

Ian B, thank you for your energy, tolerance and the time you put into proving a point and helping Mark to understand what he has acquired without being misinformed. Haruta was a ridiculous assessment from those who should know better. ​不動智神妙録   

Have a great day everyone. 

[Japan2112]

Well, everyone I have learned quite a bit about this helmet and thank everybody very much for your comments. 

I will now look upon this new find with a more discerning eye and question even more. If I discover something new and relevant in my study I will let everyone know.

Best Regards,

Mark

[IanB]

Uwe,  Thank you for that comment and I fully respect your right to disagree with the conclusion I reached in this matter, (and by the way there is nothing whatsoever honorable about my conclusion). Dave Thatcher has written what he believes to be true, but I am afraid I must disillusion him. For 25 years I was a college lecturer before I became a museum curator and that experience has taught me that in reality I actually know very little. What I have learned however is not to leap in with what you believe, but to check that what you believe has validity and give details of how you checked your belief. When Mark put up the images of his helmet I had no more idea who Ieyoshi was than my dog. So, I dug around in Shin Katchushi Meikan before discovering the information I found. Unfortunately Sasama states that this other 8 plate helmet exists but does not say where it is or anything else about it. I have no idea if what he says is correct and have no way of verifying what he says, but I accept he knows a hell of a lot more than I do so I accept what he says as being correct. That is why I stated that his text was the source of the information I quoted in my answer. Unfortunately the contrary views expressed were in the main just that, bald statements such as 'It is XXX'  The contrary view was that the helmet was Haruta based on the shape and something about the koshimaki, a perfectly reasonable opinion, but not evidenced in any way, and I still do not know what is special about the koshimaki. I am happy to be proved wrong on this and since you do not share my opinion, I would be interested for the reasoning behind your opinion. 

And yes, I would love to share a German wine with you again.

Ian B.

[Luc T]

Ian, ok with your interpretation of the Sasama, but I never wrote baldly ‘this is xxx’. I wrote. :’It seems to be a xxx’.

My conclusion is that some people can say the most offending things here, but for others it is forbidden to have a simple opinion.

When emotion takes it over from rationality, any serious discussion is over.

And about the koshimaki... well, a koshimaki is for a kabuto what a nakago is for a sword (dixit a most respected Japanese expert)

the more you know, the more,you know what you don’t know

with respect,

Luc

[Brian]

I'm not happy at all when this turned personal. I thought for a loooong while how to prune this and yet keep it relevant.
But there is no way to do it without losing vital info. I am not taking sides...I refuse to. But I can say that the side that may be right is not always the side that best makes their point or is the most polite. And vice versa. I do not like the way you tackled this in some ways Dave. I think you lose a lot of what you are trying to say by the way you say it.
I don't know any of you personally, so have no bias. I can only view it from an outsider's point of view. Don't mistake lack of moderation for condoning certain comments. It just means I cannot easily separate them from the other points being made. But they form part of future actions and the way I view things going forward.
In other words....tread lightly when making your argument. We are all adults here.

[IanB]

Brian, This started out as a very interesting post that brought out a lot of interesting information, and you are right in saying it has now, sadly, degenerated into something of battleground.  I admit I am as guilty as anyone of getting on my high-horse and because of that I now feel it is time to shut up. The NMB has been a source of information and inspiration for so many over the years and I sincerely hope it continues to be so. 

Ian Bottomley  

[Luc T]

Ian, i hope for the day that we can discuss armor with an open mind as we did in the past.

This group is too small for troube.

It is up to us to change this.

Luc T

[IanB]

Luc , I whole heartily agree.

Ian

[Japan2112]

Hello all,

I've got to say, that everyone's ideas and opinions  have opened a door into what I may have acquired and has instilled upon me a great ,new appreciation of my helmet.. There was an extreme amount of information exchanged, and hopefully no one's feelings were trampled upon Thank you for taking such an interest, .

 

Mark 

[Luc T]

Mark,

it is an interesting  and unusual kabuto after all , thanks for sharing.

The information in Sasama's Shin Katchushi Meikan is one of the very few sources we have.  Altough it must be said that later research changed insights and knowledge, it is still very valuable as a research tool.   Takemura sensei, one of the  leading experts of our NKBKHK, is working on a new updated katchushi index.  Maybe it will bring new insights on your Ieyoshi kabuto.