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Koa Isshin With Nthk Papers

PNSSHOGUN

By PNSSHOGUN
in Military Swords of Japan

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vajo Grand Master

vajo

Posted
Posted

The NTHK does not give Kanteisho to non nihonto.

It seems that Koa Isshin has status of Nihonto now. And i missed two times to buy a Koa Isshin cheap  :laughing:

  • Like 4
Bruce Pennington Grand Master

Bruce Pennington

Posted
Posted

John,

 

Thank you for this blade link! Stories have been told of papered Mantetsu, but this is the first proof we've seen posted, AND it's a blade I didn't have in the study!

 

Over time, some auction pages/picture links become inactive, so I'm posting the full pics here for preservation:post-3487-0-96428400-1551017436_thumb.jpgpost-3487-0-98855200-1551017447_thumb.jpg

  • Like 2
Bruce Pennington Grand Master

Bruce Pennington

Posted
Posted

Thanks to Guy, the rating given on this is:

 

鑑定書

Kanteisho

 

Which is: “This is the second highest and more commonly seen origami certificate from the NTHK-NPO that offers a generous amount of information on the sword’s characteristics. The certificate will be issued for swords of considerable quality in which the mei (signature) is authentic OR in the case that if sword is mumei (unsigned), the judges will offer their opinion on who the smith or school was that forged the blade.”

Beater Enthusiast

Beater

Posted
Posted

Looking forward to a full explanation of the rationale behind this decision. If blades made outside Japan, from non-tamahagane and employing mechanised procedures are to be classified Nihonto, surely this opens the door for further diversity?

  • Like 1
Bruce Pennington Grand Master

Bruce Pennington

Posted
Posted

Is it possible that it is just authenticating the mei, and not the manufacturing process.

 

Neil,

 

Your question got lost in the hubbub - I think you're onto something. The lowest rating, Shinteisho, simply states that the mei is original. Kanteisho states the mei is original and the blade is "important" or "quality" work. As we all know, the Mantetsu operation made quality blades and was an important contribution to the resurrection of the katana.

 

What I'm hoping to find out from Chris Bowen is the "charter", so to speak, of the rating societies. Why do they exist? Are they chartered to only evaluate traditionally made nihonto? Or is their mission to evaluate/preserve high-quality Japanese made blades? Are they expanding their mission?

 

Inquiring minds want to know!

PNSSHOGUN Grand Master

PNSSHOGUN

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Here is what Chris had to say:

 

I wanted to post an update as I just received a reply to my question to the NTHK-NPO. Here is their reply:

当会としての満鉄刀についての見解は、「満鉄刀の美術
的な価値については認めていないものの、歴史的な価値（戦争や紛争の記憶遺産）を認めて鑑定書を発行しています。」

They are saying that in their opinion, while they recognize that Mantetsu blades do not have any artistic value, they believe that they do have historical value as they are documentation of the war and conflicts from the past, therefore they will issue kantei-sho for them.

Hope this sheds some light on this and helps to answer the op's question....

  • Like 2
Bruce Pennington Grand Master

Bruce Pennington

Posted
Posted

Thanks John! Looks like your hunch was correct.

 

David, Ha! Yes, the dam is slowly getting cracks in it! It's been 73 freakin' years. It's time to open up and allow the appreciation of all beauty. All craftsmanship has it's value and beauty and should be appreciated (Ok, so one exception is the Airbus 380, it's just ugly).

  • 1 month later...
16k Grand Master

16k

Posted
Posted

Okay, so I read this thread, the other one (unfortunately, the pictures are long gone) about a Showato being accorded papers and the reply by Tsuruta san associated with it. Then I reread George Trotter’s translation of Ohmura on Hontanrento. And it leaves me with a question. If the sword in question was non traditional, oil quenched, with a Showa or Seki stamp, how could it have been labeled Hontanrento?

Beater Enthusiast

Beater

Posted
Posted

hontanren-to (true hammer forged swords). Traditionel made swords.

No, Tsuruta San said Han not Hon. I think, as in Handachi mounts, it means partial?

 

Han-tanren = abura yaki-ire-to. Partially forged from mill stock, some folding, differentially hardened using oil. Does have a hamon although it is nowhere near as active as a water-quenched sword, but lacks hada.

Beater Enthusiast

Beater

Posted
Posted

Hantanren-to are oil hardned not traditionel forged swords. Why should get such a sword papers?

Please see my earlier post on this thread above. I am equally dumbfounded. The answer to your question however, appears to be, because they, whilst having no art value, have "historical value and are documentation of the war and conflicts from the past." Using that explanation, I can see no reason why any gunto cannot now also get papers. This is a very odd decision indeed.

 

Personally, unlike those who detected the Japanese were lamenting, I suspect they are in fact rubbing their hands together as this will stimulate business, at a depressed time for Nihonto, and fuel the inexplicable rise in interest (and prices) for certain gunto. I hope Mr Bowen, who elicited the response from the authorities, will seek further explanations in how this "historical" criteria will be applied in the future, to other types of non-traditional gunto.

  • Like 2
Dave R Grand Master

Dave R

Posted
Posted

 It is possibly worth remembering that the original demarcation between "traditional" and "non traditional"  swords was made to preserve Nihonto from destruction by the post war occupation authorities. Now the only foreign troops in Japan are limited to rented bases in a few locations, and the occupation is officially at an end. Perhaps this distinction is now seen as less relevant than it was.

 

 As for why the swords were originally confiscated and then destroyed, see below.

 

post-2218-0-40428400-1556614392_thumb.jpg

  • Like 4
IJASWORDS Grand Master

IJASWORDS

Posted
Posted

This is an interesting development. I have papered Emura and Nagamitsu (no stamps, and no star stamp). At the end of the day, showato  are Japanese swords, made at a time in history, for the same purpose as ancient samurai swords, weapons.... only their mode of manufacture or material may differ.

A WW2 officer who surrendered his showato sword, felt just as devastated as he would if it was an old nihonto.

I have felt for a long time that WW2 swords should also be afforded recognition.   

  • Like 2
Ooitame Mentor

Ooitame

Posted
Posted

This is an interesting development. I have papered Emura and Nagamitsu (no stamps, and no star stamp). At the end of the day, showato are Japanese swords, made at a time in history, for the same purpose as ancient samurai swords, weapons.... only their mode of manufacture or material may differ.

A WW2 officer who surrendered his showato sword, felt just as devastated as he would if it was an old nihonto.

I have felt for a long time that WW2 swords should also be afforded recognition.

 

I can agree somewhat. Yes, Nagamitsu and Emura made swords and are showato, by definition; with some very nice blades. I own what I consider to be a powerful Nagamitsu with NTHK Kantiesho; so I may have some bias. However, I believe these were all made by traditional means tamahagne, pine charcoal, folding, hamon/tempering, and water quench, as dictated by the RJT. In addition, these were also forged within what I consider traditional Japanese country and not occupied territory. This to me, makes them true Nihonto.

 

I think the issue is Mantetsu were not all of the above. This to me, means even though possibly having historical significance, and I must say after Bruce's survey thread I have become fond of some Mantestu works, they are still not Nihonto in my strictest terms. So I find the reasoning a little odd. The only thing I can think of is to try and prevent non traditionally made showato from being destroyed as per the current regulations. Although I could be completely wrong.

 

Is it just the NTHK-NPO, issuing Kantiesho, or does the NTHK do this as well for Mantetsu?

  • Like 2
Bruce Pennington Grand Master

Bruce Pennington

Posted
Posted

This is an interesting development. I have papered Emura and Nagamitsu (no stamps, and no star stamp). At the end of the day, showato  are Japanese swords, made at a time in history, for the same purpose as ancient samurai swords, weapons.... only their mode of manufacture or material may differ.

A WW2 officer who surrendered his showato sword, felt just as devastated as he would if it was an old nihonto.

I have felt for a long time that WW2 swords should also be afforded recognition.

 

 

 

Neil, I agree fully. Sure, the showato maybe shouldn't reach the higher levels of the ratings as they gendaito smiths works really are different in the art of the craft, but some showato have real art as well, and some, like the Mantetsu were so good there was a waiting list of officers wanting them.

 

 

I can agree somewhat. Yes, Nagamitsu and Emura made swords and are showato, by definition; with some very nice blades. I own what I consider to be a powerful Nagamitsu with NTHK Kantiesho; so I may have some bias. However, I believe these were all made by traditional means tamahagne, pine charcoal, folding, hamon/tempering, and water quench, as dictated by the RJT. In addition, these were also forged within what I consider traditional Japanese country and not occupied territory. This to me, makes them true Nihonto.

I think the issue is Mantetsu were not all of the above. This to me, means even though possibly having historical significance, and I must say after Bruce's survey thread I have become fond of some Mantestu works, they are still not Nihonto in my strictest terms. So I find the reasoning a little odd. The only thing I can think of is to try and prevent non traditionally made showato from being destroyed as per the current regulations. Although I could be completely wrong.

Is it just the NTHK-NPO, issuing Kantiesho, or does the NTHK do this as well for Mantetsu?

Yes, it was actually a NTHK papered Mantetsu that started this discussion.

  • Like 1
David Flynn Grand Master

David Flynn

Posted
Posted

I reallly believe you guys need to study more about Nihonto.  If you put as much effort into studying Nihonto, as you do Showato and NCO blades, then you would enter a whole different world.  To many nihonto collectors,  Showato and NCOs are just militaria.  Nice to have maybe one good example, otherwise, eh!  As Ooitame said, Nagamitsu and Emura, are  true Nihonto, and are papered by NTHK (Yoshikawa group),  NTHK-NPO and  NBTHK.

16k Grand Master

16k

Posted
Posted

Shouldn’t there be room for both types of appreciation?

 

I like both (though military is very recent for me, but I think it’s a whole new world too!) and can’t see one excluding the other. Both interesting, both for different reasons. And in the end, call Nihonto “art swords”, but at the basis of it all, one same purpose: cut your enemy. Manufacture methods are different, but times were too.

  • Like 2
Beater Enthusiast

Beater

Posted
Posted

I reallly believe you guys need to study more about Nihonto. If you put as much effort into studying Nihonto, as you do Showato and NCO blades, then you would enter a whole different world. To many nihonto collectors, Showato and NCOs are just militaria. Nice to have maybe one good example, otherwise, eh! As Ooitame said, Nagamitsu and Emura, are true Nihonto, and are papered by NTHK (Yoshikawa group), NTHK-NPO and NBTHK.

Hi Dave,

 

That sounds rather harsh, especially as this thread is in a section specifically about Military swords. I suspect the majority of folk began their journey into Nihonto at an entry level which probably involved a sword in 'gunto mounts. Some progress quickly to Nihonto and others expand their military sword collections. We are all collectors and whether it is beer coasters or Juyo katana that we are collecting, it isn't helpful to dismiss others who simply don't share your exact preferences.

 

Only yesterday I was reading another thread in which someone expressed an opinion about people who collected mumei or suriage Shinto blades - wasting their time and money etc etc. I'm glad others did challenge that elitist and narrow minded opinion. Often what we choose to collect is dictated by what you can afford. Sometimes people who could afford more expensive Nihonto prefer to seek out that low number copper hilt NCO and who can say they are wrong? Indeed if the present downward trend in Nihonto continues and the ever spiralling prices for Mantetsu, NCO swords and many kaigunto continues, we may soon find ourselves as the poor relations?

 

Getting back to the subject of this thread, I think we may be seeing the start of a new trend amongst the governing bodies in recognising swords which previously didn't meet the criteria. I personally think it's a mistake but who cares what I think. I currently only have one gunto-mounted sword - a signed and dated (Bizen ju & full art name) Nagamitsu. It's not papered and I wouldn't ever consider having it papered - why would you? It is what it is and, paradoxically, a papered Mantetsu-to is still exactly that.

  • Like 3
Bruce Pennington Grand Master

Bruce Pennington

Posted
Posted

I checked the link and it shows NPO NTHK.

Thanks Eric! Hate to say it, but I didn't even know there was a difference. It's a world I'm totally ignorant of.

 

I reallly believe you guys need to study more about Nihonto.  If you put as much effort into studying Nihonto, as you do Showato and NCO blades, then you would enter a whole different world.  To many nihonto collectors,  Showato and NCOs are just militaria.  Nice to have maybe one good example, otherwise, eh!  As Ooitame said, Nagamitsu and Emura, are  true Nihonto, and are papered by NTHK (Yoshikawa group),  NTHK-NPO and  NBTHK.

I'm sure you're right David, but I, for one, don't have the time, money, or interest. WWII militaria is all I can manage. It's like everything else, some people can stare all day at a Picasso - I'd rather look at a perfectly done Philipino painting of a dafodil. I see the beauty of nihonto, it's just not my area of interest.

This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

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