Shin Shinto?

[vajo]

Is this mumei o-wakizashi, i think Shin Shinto around 1800 or earlier or later?

 

Nagasa 58,2 cm

 

[TheGermanBastard]

I think your guess is very good lol

[16k]

Yes, I’d say shinshinto too.

[vajo]

Thank you gents. Is it Bizen Mino School or only the style? Is a kantei possible or the pictures to bad?

[george trotter]

Very hard from pics, but maybe Aizu Kanesada line in shin-shinto.

The nakago shape with iriyamagata jiri and almost kiri yasuri mei, together with what looks like gonome-midare and maybe some hakikake in the boshi (unless I am imagining it?) suggests late Aizu...which is Mino-den.

I hope I'm not too far off the mark from the quality of the pics....but it rminds me of a late Aizu of my own.

Hope this helps,

[vajo]

Thank you George i really appreciate your guess. I compare some pictures with it and it looks very similar to Aizu. 

 

So it could be Ansei era or Kaei?

[george trotter]

Thank you George i really appreciate your guess. I compare some pictures with it and it looks very similar to Aizu. 

 

So it could be Ansei era or Kaei?

Yes Chris, either-or....10th gen worked Kaei - Ansei  and his son 11th gen worked Kaei-Meiji.This means the son worked with the father and even made swords for the father to sign...so, there are mumei swords around that could be either-or. To add to the question it is known that between c. 1875-1895 the 11 gen also made many mumei utsushi of Nanbokucho era long swords greatly shortened in Sengaku Jidai. All of them unsigned. I must say, I like their work, but it is hard to tell mumei 10gen from mumei 11 gen Aizu Kanesada. Have a look at Markus Sesko article online "Last of the Aizu Kanesadas".

The only thing different about yours (that I can see from the pics) is that if yours was one of the utsushi, it should have an o-kissaki, otherwise it is a reasonable match. Of course, it could be simply one of their mumei blades, not necessarily an utsushi. Also type in the name Aizu Kadesada online and see what comes up.

 

Hope this helps

[vajo]

Wow thats a great help George. I read the article from Markus, very interesting. 

 

not a very sharp picture..

 

 

 

[george trotter]

I think it is possibly one of their boshi Chris...you'll have to study hard and search for info..I do seem to recall a variety of boshi (including in my case ko-maru with hakikake on one side and midare komi with ko-maru on the other) so also are there the more dynamic ones like yours, so you have a variety of possibilities...it all comes down to study. I feel sure my blade is by 10-11 gen, but will I ever know without shinsa?...not really, it might turn out to be someone else entirely...study, study, study. One thing about Mino den, many people, including myself have/had very little interest in Mino, but in fact, there are a lot of good blades by them. It was only finding a good example that "opened my mind" to them...I must say, I now feel much more respectful of Seki origin lines of Mino den smiths like the Aizu.

Let us know what you find.

Regards,

[16k]

Cool article also by Markus Sesko is how a line of the Kanesada’s ended up in Aizu. A must and fun read!

 

https://japaneseswordlegends.wordpress.com/2015/10/01/the-spirit-is-willing-but-the-flesh-is-weak/

[vajo]

I got the wakizashi yesterday and today i made some shots.

 

 

I think the hamon is gunome midare choji in nioi-deki with ko-nie. I would be pleased if you could help me to describe the sword for my personal collection. It feels very heavy in hand and with the lenght its katana like.

 

I got the sword blank only with habaki. It was polished some years ago. The owner had store it in a i think modern katana saya. So i have not decided what to do next.

 

For question. I read in Markus Kantei Book that the late Edo Period - to Meiji the nagasa was not longer up to 48 cm on wakizashi.

The only time for these long wakizashi was found at Mid Edo Period 1688 - 1781.

The nagasa is 58,2 cm.

 

So maybe i overread something or i should search earlier than 1800 - 1868.

[george trotter]

Hi Chris,

That nakago/yasuri/jiri and hamon sure look like Mino-den Kanesada style to me (but of course could be other makers also).

About length in Meiji era. I have read in Markus' work on the last of the Kanesada line that 11 gen, Kanesada made copies of Nanbokucho era long blades greatly shortened in the Sengoku jidai to become uchigatana. My own example is 59.0 cm with little reduction in blade width and long tip so it appears it is a copy of a uchigatana and so does not have the characteristics of a wakizashi, but of a shortened sword. If yours was made as a wakizashi it will have those wakizashi characteristics. I can only say you should search maybe "wakizashi Kanesada" and see what comes up...it might give you more info about examples of the Kanesada styles/lengths in shinto-shinshinto-Meiji eras. Yours may simply be a bit earlier made than 10-11 gen.

I hope I am not leading you astray Chris, after all my own opinion on my "Kanesada" is just that "my opinion" and has not been tested by shinsa.

good hunting,

[vajo]

Hello George

I come closer and closer to your guess. Thanks a lot for all your input. I didn't found any swords in the internet to compare with that gen. Kanesada. Most of the Kanesada swords are older. I hope some members have some informations too.

[vajo]

George did you have a picture of your sword to compare with mine. 

 

I found this.

 

11th gen. Kanesada

 

 

And this 10th gen. Kanesada

 

 

[vajo]

I tried to catch the boshi better from mine.

 

[vajo]

I bought this book now.

[george trotter]

Hi Chris,

Those pics you show of 10 gen Kanesada are some of those I searched out on-line  to help decide on my sword being 10 - 11 gen Kanesada...VERY similar. Check its tip, hamon, nakago/jiri.yasuri etec etc against these pics I now attach of my own sword. As I said, i think mine might be an utsushi of a shortened Nanbokucho blade (if anyone has an opinion, please speak...I am not too old to still learn).

 

As for my pics, I am the world's worst blade photographer, sorry...but I hope they help you in your search.

 

My blade is 59 cm; machi is 3.1 cm; yokote is 2.2 cm = 0.9 taper.

 

Kissaki nagasa is 5.0 cm. one side is ko-maru/ slightly naga kaeri with some hakikake and the other is the same but midare-komi (can't see any hakikake).. 

 

Tang 18 cm. iriyamagata jiri; yasuri are slight katte sagari - almost kiri.

Regards, 

[vajo]

Hello George. Thank you very much for your pictures. A very nice sword. That looks very similar to mine including nakago and yasurime. For me yours look like an utsushi as it is written in Markus article. The boshi looks incredible. In a few days i will get the kanesada book from lulu and hope to find some worth informations in it. I will check your sword also with the book.

Thanks a lot for your help George.

 

Best

Chris

[george trotter]

Glad to help Chris.

Regards,

[vajo]

After i got the book and finished reading it, i come for me to the conclusion that it is 11th generation Kanesada.

George you was a big help.

 

[SAS]

There were 2 generations of Aizu Kunisada also, in early Shinto; very little information published on how they fit in.

[vajo]

I try to compare Kunisada too but i failed to find similarities. Can you compare the sword to Kunisada? The nakago jiri, the yasurime, the hada, hamon and the shape fits to Kanesada later generation. The sword is very beefy to and was not often polish. So i guess it is belong to the length too near to a katana that it is a shin shinto sword. 

 

But I'm very open to other inputs. 

[SAS]

Nakago treatment is similar to the one Kunisada example i have; that is about all i can say.

[vajo]

Steve could you post a picture of the nakago to compare?

[SAS]

This is not my photo, it is from the sales listing when i bought it from Ed.

[george trotter]

Hi Chris, Glad to have helped, I just hope that, the swords being mumei,  I have not led you down the wrong path. From the studies I did using Markus' work and other sources, mine sure seems to fit into what is known of 10-11 Gen Aizu Kanesadas and seems to match their work. From the pics and details you have provided on your sword it seems to me to also fit this Mino line, possibly even the same 10-11 gens.

I'm sure you are like me and always keep one eye open for more examples to compare and more information to read...this is the way to learn. If I or you find any new info I am sure we will share.

Regards and enjoy your sword.

[vajo]

Thanks George. Very nice.

[shibeni]

Hello, could this mumei utsushi Nanbokucho katana also be some of Kanesada work...

Nagasa: 68,2

Sori: 2,03

Motohaba: 3,00

Sakihaba:2,36

Kasane:0,68

Saki kasane:0,49

Chu kissaki

Hada: ko mokume, ko itame, chikei

Hamon: Gunome midare, nioi deki, yo

Boshi: Midare komi, ko maru

Nakago: õ suriage

Yasurime: kiri

Bo hi, kaki nagashi