AOI ART KANTEI QUIZZ 4

[Jean]

http://www.aoi-art.com/kantei/kantei04.html

[saemonjonosuke]

For my feeling this sword dates from the nambokucho period.

(longer kissaki, typical hi)

My guess is (sekishu) Naotsuna School.

[sabiji]

I think also Nanbokucho. The Hada looks very colorfull and there is splendid jinie and Chikei. There is much Soshu in this blade.

But Sekishu Naotsuna is a nice idea.

[Jean]

Johnny,

 

You are the first one

 

My kantei (though there is no ashi) at fits glance will be late Kamakura - Soshu Yukimitsu

 

I am probably wrong as, till now, Tsuruta san never had such quality blade on sale.

 

An alternative of course could be Taima

 

Btw, I love this hint :

 

Hint:

The blade was polished .

 

I am becoming sarcastic ...

[takakage]

in spite black hada often seen on naotsuna, may be a yamato shizu could match due to nie deki , short kaeri hakikakke in boshi and hada seems masame near ha ?

[saemonjonosuke]

Yes,, the black hada, nambokucho sugata, pointed hakikake boshi, sunagashi (masame near the ha) and the soshu influence gives my the feeling of a "less" quality soshu blade.

But, it is just a guess from a picture.

 

Johnny

[Brian]

I would go with Nanbokucho, Naotsuna on this one too. The darkish steel, very prominent hakikake boshi, sunagashi , kinsuji and chikei. Hi well cut and looking original.

Beautiful sword anyways! Someone is going to own themselves a beauty soon.

 

Brian

[Guest reinhard]

resumée:

 

"dates from the nambokucho period (longer kissaki, typical (?) hi)"

"Hada looks very colorful (?) and there is splendid jinie and chikei (?)"

"much Soshu in this blade (?)"

"late Kamakura-Soshu Yukimitsu"

"could be Taima"

"may be a Yamato Shizu....due to nie-deki (???)"

"gives me the feeling of a "less" quality soshu blade (?)"

"someone is going to own themselves a beauty soon" > pretty close, but missing the ultimate hint:

 

"YOU SHOULD BUY IMMEDIATELY"

 

reinhard

[saemonjonosuke]

Buying??

 

I thougth this is a kantei?

[Brian]

Reinhard is being cryptic :lol:

The top part where it mentions "you should buy..." is part of the answer from the last kantei.

Yes, after the answer is given, these kantei swords are usually up for sale by Aoi.

 

Brian

[Darcy]

Looks like everyone is scenting on the same trail.

 

I think it is Shizu Kaneuji. The bo-hi terminating well below the ko-shinogi is a feature of Nanbokucho swords at the oldest, it isn't supposed to appear on Kamakura swords which would rule out an earlier swordsmith.

 

The itame pattern flirts with looking like Norishige, and the pattern of gunome on the sword is something that looks more like Naoe Shizu. Those I've seen though seem to have less activity than Shizu Kaneuji, and the combination with the activity in the hamon, in the boshi particularly, and the black itame and chikei in the body of the piece bring me to Shizu Kaneuji.

 

I think Naotsuna would have had much more prevalent gunome midare throughout the hamon and looking less like a notare/gunome mix, but it is possible that it is an older Naotsuna as there are several generations.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Naoe Shizu seems a reasonable call here.

[Guest reinhard]

"blackish itame" is pointing to the Hokurikudo.

 

reinhard

[Eric H]

 

Taima

 

 

Eric

[uwe]

Hi folks,

considering the blackish jigane (not really sure, because of the whitish Mino hada developed later ) and the obviously missing togari, let me eliminate the Mino backround. Soshu (Naotsuna?) or Yamato Taima would worth a bet

My two cents......

Uwe

[Guest reinhard]

Soshu-style with Yamato traits, but not good enough to be Yamato-Shizu nor Taema (and a boshi atypical), Nambokucho sugata, blackish jigane. What about Ko-Uda?

 

reinhard

[Darcy]

Soshu-style with Yamato traits, but not good enough to be Yamato-Shizu nor Taema (and a boshi atypical), Nambokucho sugata, blackish jigane. What about Ko-Uda?

 

reinhard

 

Maybe a good time for a note on Shizu attributions since they are confusing, this should go from earliest to latest:

 

1. Yamato Kaneuji / Tegai Kaneuji: The smith Kaneuji working in Yamato style before his adoption of Soshu, he was likely a member of the Tegai Kanenaga group.

 

2. Kaneuji: Usually reserved for signed pieces by the Shodai "Shizu" Saburo Kaneuji, usually Soshu style, signature ican be the Mino style kanji å…¼æ°, or the square-style kanji 包æ°, lacking "Yamato" or "Tegai" though usually is referring to post-Masamune style signature and work. There are also Kaneuji smiths of both signatures that follow in homage or lineage in Mino and Yamato, so care has to be taken about which smith is being intended in regards to a signed piece. This smith is considered the same as Yamato Kaneuji, after absorbing teachings of Masamune and having left Yamato for Kamakura then Mino. Some disagree, like Fujishiro, considering them separate smiths.

 

3. Shizu: place name in Mino where Kaneuji settles post-Masamune, and becomes synonymous with Kaneuji's work. Attribution to Shizu is to Kaneuji, post-Masamune.

 

4. Yamato Shizu: this becomes a back-reference to Kaneuji's work pre-Masamune. It's confusing given the fact that Shizu as a place has nothing to do with his work pre-Masamune, but works based on Shizu as his nickname.

 

5. Yamato Shizu: the students and lineage that follows Kaneuji in Yamato, which he leaves behind when he moves to Kamakura, then Mino. Especially confusing because it is the same name as [5], meaning that any attribution to Yamato Shizu includes both teacher, and students, and can be many smiths working for 100 years or so after he leaves. As well, the signature is handed down, so even any signed work of åŒ…æ° is going to be called Yamato Shizu, and needs to be carefully considered before jumping to a conclusion about which smith this is. There is an NTHK presentation out there which makes this mistake of attributing a 1350 dated, signed Yamato Shizu åŒ…æ° work to the Shodai.

 

5. Den Shizu: an attribution to Kaneuji, item has some extra or is missing some minor feature that does not make it a perfect match. This is not a school attribution.

 

6. Shizu Den: reference to the school of smiths that follows Kaneuji in Shizu, generally this isn't used.

 

7. Naoe Shizu: two place names in Mino, referring to the fact that the primary sons and students of Shizu (Kanetsugu, Kanewaka, Kanetomo, Kanetoshi) relocate to Naoe. Their work is all similar, and they become known as Naoe Shizu, and this is the form of reference to the "Shizu Den" named in 6.

 

8. Den Naoe Shizu: attribution is to one of the students of Kaneuji in Mino, but the work does not perfectly fit (+/- minor feature) their archetypal styles.

 

9. Den Yamato Shizu: attribution is to Kaneuji pre-Masamune, or his students and their students and following lineage, left behind in Yamato, work is +/- some small feature away from archetypal style.

 

10. Akasaka Kaneuji: a revival of the name of Shizu Saburo Kaneuji, rather than a continuation, in the late Muromachi.

 

11. Sue Kaneuji: end of the line of Akasaka Kaneuji.

 

So.... in the above, if Yamato Kaneuji is too good an attribution, it could be that the breadth of Yamato Shizu is still possible to handle the attribution as the skill level will vary from Jo-jo saku to chu-saku, so it could work for your attribution.

[Eric H]

Darcy, thank you for the detailed summary. In this connection and due to Tsuruta-san's hint to check the hamon inside of the kissaki area, I like to add some pics.

 

Pic 1 refers to a Juyo Token Katana attributed to Yamato Kaneuji. The description says "The nie is particularly asserted in the boshi and forms flames consisting of hakikake.....and most typically exemplified by the boshi, indicating that this blade is undoubtedly a work o the Yamato school.

 

Pic 2 Quiz 4

 

Pic 3 Taima Boshi

 

Eric

[Jean]

Eric

I agree with you, Andy's Kaneuji ad Ricecracker juyo Taima shows strong Hakikake.

 

Nevertheless, the blackish jigane indicating northern country could point to Ko Uda as stated by Reinhard but I don't find this sword hada as coarse as found usually in Uda school.

 

For those who have not seen it, check the Taima Juyo displaid on Ricecracker website

[Guest reinhard]

2. Kaneuji: Usually reserved for signed pieces by the Shodai "Shizu" Saburo Kaneuji, usually Soshu style, signature ican be the Mino style kanji å…¼æ°, or the square-style kanji 包æ°

 

Darcy,

 

This goes somewhat off ("kantei") topic, but blades with the "square-style kanji" are all attributed to later followers of shodai KANEUJI of the Yamato Tegai school. Zai-mei blades by "THE" KANEUJI were only found with the "Mino style kanji" up to now.

 

Eric,

 

The example of Yamato KANEUJI you are presenting (Engl. Token Bijutsu No.18, for those who want to look it up) is a little tricky for reference. It is shortened quite much, rather atypical, with an attribution by Hon'ami Koson (not always reliable), and Dr.Homma, who wrote the comment, didn't feel perfectly comfortable:

"Among Kaneuji's signed examples we have never come across any other examples exemplifying this type of workmanship, but theoretically this attribution is quite agreeable." (a polite way to express doubts)

 

Yamato Shizu (referring to shodai KANEUJI while still working for the Tegai group) made his blades in a very conservative style. This becomes particularly obvious when looking at sugata, hamon and boshi, and is in accordance with Tegai-style at the end of Kamakura-period. His workmanship is far superior and quite different to the one we are trying to pin down in this funny game (for it is not proper kantei, but this could be another thread). If the blade we are trying to identify, were "Yamato Shizu", it would be the work of later followers.

 

Taema is known for refined jitetsu, highly reflective nie and a very typical hada in the monouchi- and kissaki-area. The hada of the blade in question seems rather coarse to me and infos about size and quality of nie are missing.

 

Anyway, neither SHIZU (Tegai, Soshu or Mino) nor Taema-school is described as having "blackish itame" in literature. Unless Tsuruta-san wants to lead people astray, this is one of the few precise hints given.

 

reinhard

[Eric H]

Jean,

it's not the Ricecracker Taima, btw, that sword has been sold formerly by Darcy.

The kissaki of pic 3 belongs to a Katana in my collection, it's attributed Taima Juyo Token.

 

Reinhard,

The reference to Yamato Kaneuji pointed especially to the flame like hakikake, the ura side of Quiz 4 bears very close resemblance to that flame like hakikake.

Kokan Nagayama, p. 160, 161 "The Taima school : "The jigane looks BLAKISH, and has....".

 

Eric

[Jean]

Hi Eric,

 

I knew it was not this Taima, but I post the Ricecracker sword for the hada

[Guest reinhard]

The reference to Yamato Kaneuji pointed especially to the flame like hakikake, the ura side of Quiz 4 bears very close resemblance to that flame like hakikake.

Kokan Nagayama, p. 160, 161 "The Taima school : "The jigane looks BLAKISH, and has....".

 

Eric,

 

It is the boshi of this particular blade, which is very atypical for Yamato Shizu. Not because of the hakkikake (one would expect), but because of its size (almost ichimai and completely out of proportion). Yamato Shizu boshi at its best is a small, conservative and elegant yakizume (including hakkikake). Owning both, Yamato Shizu and Taema (both Juyo Token), I'd wonder if the sword in question was attributed to one of these schools. If it is so, it would be at the lower end of their quality scale.

 

You are correct, of course, quoting Nagayama-sensei. From his point of view (polisher with a life-long experience) Taema (and Soshu) hada can be called "blackish", but looking at Juyo papers and especially Kantei infos, "blackish jigane" is usually reserved to swords from Hokurikudo provinces (Echizen, Etchu, Echigo, Kaga and Wakasa), sometimes also used to describe swords from southern Kyushu. This is what I meant by saying "unless Tsuruta-san is leading us astray".

 

reinhard

[Jean]

Reinhard wrote :

 

The example of Yamato KANEUJI you are presenting (Engl. Token Bijutsu No.18, for those who want to look it up) is a little tricky for reference. It is shortened quite much, rather atypical, with an attribution by Hon'ami Koson (not always reliable), and Dr.Homma, who wrote the comment, didn't feel perfectly comfortable:

"Among Kaneuji's signed examples we have never come across any other examples exemplifying this type of workmanship, but theoretically this attribution is quite agreeable." (a polite way to express doubts)

 

 

In fact, it looks like Dr Homma would have been more confortable with a Kanenaga attribution.

 

What do you think of it Reinhard?

[Guest reinhard]

Jean,

 

I don't feel competent at all to classify this Yamato KANEUJI, for I have never seen it first hand, but comparing oshigata, description and photos with all I know and ever saw of Yamato SHIZU, I think I know quite well what Dr.Homma felt when appreciating this blade. There are swords, which give you an immediate impression of what they probably are and during closer examination all features continue to confirm this impression. Other swords you don't feel sure about, starting by elimination and end up with the most probable attribution without feeling perfectly comfortable in the end. It cannot be confirmed anymore, but Dr.Homma's comment at the end gives me a notion of the second kind of procedure. Nevertheless the sword must be of high quality for it ranks Juyo Token.

 

reinhard

[saemonjonosuke]

Darcey,

I think that yamato shizu is the best option. (at least dozen)

And yes, there is to less gunome for Naotsuna.

[Eric H]

Reinhard,

 

Why not post a pic of the kissaki-section of your Yamato-Shizu for documentation and comparison ?

"A picture says more than 1000 words"

 

Eric

[Brian]

I think Aoi owe us all a permanent discount for Kantei-induced stress

 

Brian

[Guest reinhard]

"A picture says more than 1000 words"

 

Eric,

 

May be, but in most cases it says less than a good oshigata. I'm not very good (nor ambitious) at taking pictures of blades anyway. My "Yamato SHIZU" is depicted in "Juyo Token nado zufu" vol. 24. (attachment) and in Dr.Homma's "Kanto Hibi Sho" vol.I, p.475. If you insist, I will provide you with pictures, but you will probably be disappointed. In this case PM me.

 

This boshi shows perfectly what should be expected of Yamato SHIZU (Dr. Homma calls the whole blade an exemplary study piece for Yamato SHIZU). It is quite different from the Yamato KANEUJI for reference and the "Kantei"-sword in question. This, I think, should bring us back on the original trail (Tsuruta-san's quizz).

 

reinhard

[Eric H]

Reinhard,

 

Many thanks for the pic, it's a valuable reference. Regrettably I have no access to the mentioned literature.

 

Eric