Old Sukashi

[vajo]

I got a nice sukashi from a old collection. The iron look and feel like a early kanayama or owari. Diameter 8.2 cm, mimi less than 3 mm.

 

New, fast pictures.
 

[Soshin]

Could you post photos showing the details of the rim?  Thank you.

[christianmalterre]

Dear Christoph,

 

i am not personally convinced, it is that old....?

 

if i do remember me well ? i have seen it already in past....

 

i actually can not point it...sorry....i but do strong guess for a "in spee" Owari or a "sideshow" -Shoami tradition here...

 

it is a nice Tsuba eitherway...but not old....maybe around the 18´s...?

( many points do not congrue...)

 

sorry...i just can not remember me where i have seen it already.....

 

eitherway-

 

nice! definitely!

 

me

[vajo]

Hi Christian,

 

it comes from the an auction

 

Its a early piece that was made at the time the Tosho plates change to the first sukashi.

 

The pictures are not really good, i was so excited after unboxing and made it fast yesterday night with my Handy. 

 

For myself I'm sure it is old.

 

Best 

 

Chris

[christianmalterre]

Well... !

Ok- a new purchase....that´s fine! ( every new purchase is fine! )

 

 

congratulations eitherway!

 

a nice new 19th´s Tsuba definitely! ( if not early 20´s ? )....

 

Christian

[vajo]

Christian

 

new pictures 

 

look above.

[TETSUGENDO]

Chris,

 

I actually know of the collection, very surprising Christian does not.  I'm just waiting to see where this goes,  with each post it gets younger, a couple more and it with be nothing more than an idea in the mind of the Tosogu-shi, LOL!

 

-S-

[vajo]

Haha, Steven you are right.

Maybe I'm the only fool that see here a nice wabi sabi themed tsuba. The color from the desk lamp makes to much red, but i wouldn't build up the kamera yet. I think all from the tsuba could be seen. But its not a problem, I have it and I'm lucky 

 

 

Cheers

 

Chris

[TETSUGENDO]

Chris,

 

Do you have a copy of the catalogue,  a pic of the illustration and text would be interesting? 

 

-S-

[vajo]

I tried to get the auction catalogue. There is one in a antique bookstore in berlin. I wrote him a email but he didn't answer yet. Not to speak that he wants some money for the catalogue. So i hope he will go down a little in price.

[TheGermanBastard]

good old tsuba!

[TETSUGENDO]

The catalogue would be a great thing to have, best of luck.

 

-S-

[Rich S]

Chris wrote -

"Maybe I'm the only fool that see here a nice wabi sabi themed tsuba."

 

Not at all, I think it is a perfect example of wabi sabi.  IMHO a great, beautiful tsuba.

Rich

[vajo]

Thanks a lot Rich.

[Marius]

OK, to keep some balance here. I am in the camp of doubters.

 

1. Collection provenance says only that the item came from a particular collection. Many a collection had duds (I can think e.g. of an awful Yamakichibei fake in Rosin's collection)

2. There has been a revival period in Japanese tosogu (and swords). Many a "Yamakichibei" has beed more or less well faked. Many were great pieces (like the ones made by the Futagoyama) but combined just too many features of several generations of Yamakichibei masters. This applies to other Owari/Kanayama tsuba.

3. Your tsuba looks like if someone said "let's go for wabi here" and then went full Monty. It is overdone, with no restraint - this is very unlike old tsuba. Please compare it with Owari examples from Sasano. There is a huge difference. 

4. Seppa dai is odd. 

 

To sum up - I believe this is a "revival" piece, made in the late Edo period, or even a younger piece. It does not strike me as particularly well done, although it is not quite amateurish.

[vajo]

Interesting Marius. Did ypu have examples from the time as they change from Tosho and Katchushi Plates to Sukashi to compare? Can you explain that?

I wonder about the less comments. I think we all could learn something to figure this out?

[Soshin]

Chris S. don't ignore me.  I want to see photos of the rim?  I am neutral until I see more photos of the tsuba in question regardless of who collection it is from.  The initial photos were poor and didn't show any important details to allow even a discussion of age.    

[vajo]

Hi David of course.

[Marius]

@Chris,

 

As for being wrong - this happens to all of us. I don't say I am right here. I just gave some points to discuss and I gave you my opinion, which may well be nonsense. 

 

In Sasano's Tosogu no Kigen there are a few early sukashi tsuba. Look at # 33, 34 and 37 (Kamakura and Nambokucho/early Muromachi yo-sukashi). You can also analyse #31 and 32 (kage-sukashi) . All of these guard are utterly different from yours. In my humble opinion your tsuba is a failed attempt to look like an early Owari. But that is my opinion and I am not shinsa.

[MauroP]

I find intriguing the hypothesis Marius made, and I'm quite prone to share it. On the other hand judging is often difficult. Here below two papered example (in my opinion quite close each other and to Chris' tsuba); the upper one has been judged true Kanayama, the one below Myōchin (and so a sort of "revival Kanayama", maybe).

Bye, Mauro

[ROKUJURO]

There was a small and less likely chance in my opinion that this could be an early and heavily corroded TSUBA that had been restored by grinding corrosion spots away before re-patinating it. But I tend to second Mariusz' opininon as it is well founded and seems much more likely.

[Marius]

Mauro,

 

Good examples, thank you! The Kanayama in your picture is actually pretty restrained - except for one section where the tekkotsu are very pronounced (I would liken this to an imperfection in a piece of pottery, reflecting the "tea taste" typical for Kanayama) the guard is rather quiet. Those pronounced tekkotsu provide a focal point, while in Chris' tsuba a very dramatic hammer work is visible all over the plate, giving it a somewhat unbalanced look ("overdone", if you will). I know, such a description is as "helpful" as the usual write-up BS

 

The Myochin tsuba - yes, it is papered as genuine, but it does look like a revival piece, trying to give us too much tekkotsu as if to ensure us that it reflects the aesthetics of a Kanayama tsuba. 

 

I think it would be nice to submit Chris' tsuba to shinsa, but even their verdict would be an opinion, albeit an educated one, and of course one decisive in terms of market value. 

[vajo]

These both look not like it. They look much more worse. Shinsa or not. I expect they are 4 or 5 mm thick. They have no meltings in the iron no wabi sabi feeling.

[Marius]

Come on Chris, that is a kidergarden argument, no? And it reminds me somewhat of those people who come here, ask for an opinion and take offence if the answer is not to their liking.

 

I know, you are not such a case, but your or my liking or not has nothing to do with that topic. I know, you have proudly shown your acquisition and here comes the pooh-pooh gang ripping your tsuba apart. I sympathise, but let us stay on topic, which - to my understanding - is whether this is an old tsuba or not.

[vajo]

Old Tsuba no question.

[Steve Waszak]

Chris,

 

You mention that your tsuba here has a rim that is less than 3mm thick.  This detail really stood out to me.  I cannot recall ever having seen a genuine early Owari sukashi or Kanayama tsuba with a rim under 4mm, and 5mm, I believe is more typical (even thicker are not uncommon).  I have a Momoyama Period Owari/Kanayama whose rim is 8mm in thickness (see photos).  Going through the Sasano books (which include quite a few Owari and Kanayama tsuba), I cannot find a single example with a rim as thin as that on your piece. 

 

Would anyone be able to offer an example or two of an early Owari/Kanayama sword guard whose rim is under 4mm?

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[Marius]

Christian, pics please!

[Marius]

Old Tsuba no question. 

Not 21th century made like Christian said and not a revival piece like Marius said. Btw, there are no Ko-Shoami, Owari oder Kanayama Utsushi revival Tsuba known.

 

Since you have determined it is old, I bow to your superior wisdom and judgment (OK, I am being a troll here). Now have it confirmed by shinsa, and I will take back my slander

[christianmalterre]

He-ho!

 

i certainly did not write 21th century!

 

i did write- maybe 18´s, 19´s or early 20´s ( just for putting the lance...)

 

and yes- i do hard doupt this spoken Tsuba is old! (  and with old i do mean the Muromachi/ Momoyama time! - the only time when Kanayama Tsuba were done).

 

 

( i do like your´s Tsuba Steven! )

 

me

[seattle1]

Hello:

As long as you asked from the first view of it I tend to think Marius is on the right track, but with a deviation. One must consider it starting life as an old plate, battered and damaged with the ji-sukashi added at some point.

Arnold F.