Anchor Mon On Rinji (Type 3)

[Bruce Pennington]

Anybody seen anything like this before?!?! It's posted on this website, https://www.warstuff.com/RARE-WW2-1945-Japanese-Marine-Landing-Forces-Off-i1555977.htm

but here's the pics:

[Ian B3HR2UH]

This has always looked suspicious to me. On all of the Japanese " mon " that I have seen the background surface has an ishime effect wheras this one appears to be a smooth surface .There are not too many of these late pattern pieces in Australia but I have never seen one with a mon on it

Ian Brooks.

[IJASWORDS]

I agree with Ian, with one caveat, mons were some times attached, not as a family lineage, but as a "good luck charm". I have such mons on swords, purely added for luck or blessing. May be the officer had a connection to the sea, but not in the IJN. 

[Mister Gunto]

I've never seen a Mon attached to a late war mounting before. Doesn't mean it couldn't have happened, but it's very unusual. 

[Edward S]

Here’s one of mine. Anchor Mon on Kabuto Garne and Tsuba.

 

For your interest.

 

Edward S

[vajo]

Special order Kai Gunto? Looks cool.

[BANGBANGSAN]

Here’s one of mine. Anchor Mon on Kabuto Garne and Tsuba.

 

For your interest.

 

Edward S

Very Cool!

[Bruce Pennington]

Clears up my concern that it was a post-war Bubba-job!

 

And what's with the end of the tassel? It seems to be joined in a unique way:

[Dave R]

Clears up my concern that it was a post-war Bubba-job!

 

And what's with the end of the tassel? It seems to be joined in a unique way: SmartSelect_20190207-132544_Chrome.jpg

 

 Or a repair to a damaged tassel.

[Ian B3HR2UH]

it looks to me like the same  UK  " improver " has been to work on both of these pieces .

Ian Brooks

[PNSSHOGUN]

Must say it looks suspect.

[Geraint]

Have to agree with Ian on this one, it's always about quality and this type of mon is available on Ebay.  All too easy to add to a sword.

 

All the best.

[lambo35]

Another WAG, the Yokosuka Arsenal used the anchor symbol on their late war type 99 rifles [Naval Special]. Could the appearance of the anchor mon on Showato be associated with the Yokosuka naval base/arsenal/administrative complex during ww2?

 

Chuck.

[Bruce Pennington]

Another WAG, the Yokosuka Arsenal used the anchor symbol on their late war type 99 rifles [Naval Special]. Could the appearance of the anchor mon on Showato be associated with the Yokosuka naval base/arsenal/administrative complex during ww2?

 

Chuck.

Do you have a picture of an example? Always open to possibilities! Like the unique emblems on Fuller's "paratrooper" guntos, guys were known to personalize their gunto and it is likely that koshirae makers offered items that might be of interest to like-minded officers wanting to jazz up their purchase.

[Bruce Pennington]

Hmmmm .... someone just shared with me pictures of, and his experience with, modern reproductions of this very same mon. SO, like all things gunto - one must take each case for it's own merit. It appalls me that so many aspects of our hobby are faked and copied! There seems to be no end to it.

 

As for the two on this thread, they both seem to have real age, where the repros I saw were shiny new. Yes, age can be faked too, so the call must be made by those in possesson of the item, as always.

 

To my original question, I had just never seen the mon used at all and wondered if others had. My gut feel is that fakers don't create something new, they copy something original. So, for a fake market to exist, I would tend to think that there were some real anchor mons out there in the first place. Like Fuller's paratrooper/aviator sarute, they must be quite rare, but likely exist or else we wouldn't have replicas.

[lambo35]

Bruce, my computer skills do not include the ability to transfer photos from one page to another, however, I have seen the pics of the "Naval Specials" on the Gunboards, "Firearms of the Rising Sun" page.

 

Chuck.

 

PS. I just looked at a couple of my books on Japanese rifles. "Military Rifles Of Japan" by Hunnicutt/Anthony, on pg. 154, 155 has pics of the anchor on the receiver/barrel of the Naval special.

[Ian B3HR2UH]

The UK ebay seller old-Japanese-swords-uk has lots of natty little silver "mon" for sale including an anchor one . If you put one of these on an NCO metal hilter , knock it about a little and let it oxidise , then you will have something unique and very saleable . He even sells menuki type fittings with a swastika on them . Put these on a sword and it would be really worth having !!

Ian brooks

[Edward S]

Oh Dear.....I seem to have stirred up a hornets nest with my Navel Gunto and anchor Mon.

 

I bought this sword quite a few years ago from another collector. He did not want silly money for this sword so I bought it along with two others. The reason I bought this sword was because of the unusual Mon (I do not claim to be an expert on Naval Swords but I have seen quite a few over the years) In fact I have only ever seen one other example like this before and that was in the shop of Chris James (Warwick)

 

About 10 years ago I discussed this sword with a well known author of our collecting interest (already mentioned above in another post) who came to the conclusion that it was rare. He never used the word fake.

 

The sword is stainless steel with the Toyokawa Naval Arsenal Stamp (exact copy of the Mon) and probably made at the Navy Kamakura Tenshozan Workshop, although I am willing to be corrected on that. The Nakago also has the other ‘sometimes seen’ stamp/mark that is still not fully known and translated as ‘That other’.

 

The saya is shagreen and the fittings are genuine and in good order.

 

The 3 kanji on the nakago appear to make up the name ‘Inanami’ which I am still unsure of.

 

The sword knot is indeed a repair (Grey spotted it straight away) at some time in the past, the knot parted and was bound with what looks like silk thread and then lacquered to hold it together.

 

If you look at the Mon, it is quite different to the one on eBay (see pics) The Mon on my sword is exactly the same as the stamp, i.e. it has a anchor ‘eye’ at the top and not as the example on eBay.

 

In truth, I do not know whether the Mon were added post war or not and neither does anyone else. What I do know is that this sword is quite genuine and is of interest to collectors.

 

This is one of those situations where there is no definitive answer. I am happy for people to reach their own conclusions about my sword. It even has a couple of file marks for Bruce to get excited about!

 

Edward S

[Bruce Pennington]

Edward,

 

Yes, definitely the Toyokawa Arsenal. Tenshozan had their own stamp, but I honestly don't know enough about them both to know if they worked together.

 

Can you fill me in on the second stamp you refered to as "the other" stamp? It almost looks like a Ren stamp, but not exactly. Do you have any references to other posts about this one?

 

I agree your mon look older and original comopared to the new reproductions.

 

Oh Dear.....I seem to have stirred up a hornets nest with my Navel Gunto and anchor Mon.

 

 

 

The sword is stainless steel with the Toyokawa Naval Arsenal Stamp (exact copy of the Mon) and probably made at the Navy Kamakura Tenshozan Workshop, although I am willing to be corrected on that. The Nakago also has the other ‘sometimes seen’ stamp/mark that is still not fully known and translated as ‘That other’.

 

 

 

If you look at the Mon, it is quite different to the one on eBay (see pics) The Mon on my sword is exactly the same as the stamp, i.e. it has a anchor ‘eye’ at the top and not as the example on eBay.

 

In truth, I do not know whether the Mon were added post war or not and neither does anyone else. What I do know is that this sword is quite genuine and is of interest to collectors.

 

This is one of those situations where there is no definitive answer. I am happy for people to reach their own conclusions about my sword. It even has a couple of file marks for Bruce to get excited about!

 

Edward S

[Shugyosha]

I don't know why, but everytime I see this thread title, I see this:

 

 

 

[george trotter]

Just saw this post.

Some years ago I saw what I think is the very same Rinji sword tsuka shown in the OP.. In fact I posted a pic of that kabuto gane with mon under a heading  inquiring about mon on type 3 swords. That looks like the very same tsuka, except to say it is now much 'cleaned'. I posted it as possibly the first evidence of a mon seen on a type 3.

You could probably dig up my original post with 'mon' and 'type 3' and my name, and see if it is the same sword.

That anchor mon is the only one I have seen ever on a type 3 and I can't really say if it is genuine. I can only say that my memory of it then and now seems to say that maybe 'over-cleaning' has made it look "newish - fakish"?

Regards,

[george trotter]

I found the post, but the pics won't open. They are on:

"Mon on a Type 3 gunto" by me, 2nd Dec. 2012 post #1, #4.

Be good if Brian could "resurrect" the pics so we can see if they are the same sword...maybe now overcleaned?

Regards,

[Windy]

I’ve go the Hawleys mon book, if anyone wants to see the relevant page.

[Brian]

Those pics seem to have been lost 7 years ago. If someone wants to ask Roy Lindus to send them again, I can edit and add to that post.
He'll still have the pics I bet.

[george trotter]

I found the original sword pic.

It is from a post called "Masakuni Gunto with reisho script" Apr. 11 2013 by Curtis A.

Sure looks like the same sword?...a bit dirtier then?

Mon looks OK to me, but who knows...?

 

Regards,

[Windy]

Little mark on top right corner of mon. Looks the same.

[Bruce Pennington]

Found this on an old thread (pg 46). Thought I'd add it as is generates similar questions:

 

Thread found here: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/6879-unusual-shingunto/

[Bryce]

G'day Bruce,

I own this sword now. Here are a couple of better pictures.

Cheers,

Bryce

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks Bryce!

 

I offer the following as a "possible" solution: Fuller & Gregory have a kyugunto that he calls "army kyu-gunto for navy use". The kyu is obviously not faked, so there must be a reason and army sword is marked with a navy anchor. Whatever that reason is - is probably behind these gunto with anchors. We can specualate about shortages or other ideas, but I beleive, like I stated above, fakers copy real stuff. So what there WERE real ones. The fact that we don't know the WHY doesn't invalidate their existance.

 

On a side note, the one on the saya is the same as the one in Dawson's book from a navy belt. Note the rope around them both.

Interesting topic.

[PNSSHOGUN]

My non-educated guess would be a gift from an Army/Navy officer exchange, training or co-operation mission where a sword with interservice markings would be appropriate.